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Talk:Line 1 (Beijing Subway)/Archive 1

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Latest comment: 3 years ago by Community Tech bot in topic A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Shouldn't there be like a history? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charlesisbozo (talk • contribs) 06:25, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

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Requested move 29 December 2017

Latest comment: 6 years ago13 comments7 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed, except with lowercase "l" in closing instances of "line". bd2412 T 17:54, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Per this RfC, which resulted in consensus to standardize titles of articles for rapid transit lines, and WP:NCDAB ​​​​​​​(notifying the other participants in the RfC). Current titles are disambiguated incorrectly because "Beijing Subway" is not a place and cannot use comma disambiguation, and some titles do not need disambiguation; for consistency with other transit systems in mainland China "Beijing" should not be used as the disambiguator since some lines such as Shanghai Metro’s Line 11 extend or will extend outside city limits. From a cursory search at least 3⁄4 of news sources (as curated by Google and excluding blogs) use the capitalized form of "Line" for each of the Changping, Daxing, Fangshan and Pinggu lines, so they should probably retain capitalized "Line".

If this RM succeeds then the other 150 articles for rapid transit lines in mainland China should also be similarly renamed, and {{Rail-interchange}} and the various succession templates (as well as any other templates) should be updated to link to the correct article titles. Jc86035 (talk) 13:49, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

  • Use lower-case line in "Pinggu line", etc.; I support otherwise. Nom is correct that there's a lot of unnecessary and inconsistent disambiguation going on here. However, it's lower-case "line" per WP:NCCAPS, MOS:CAPS, and WP:CONSISTENCY with all the other transit article and all the previous RMs. A 3/4 rate of capitalization in news in one place is meaningless; see recent other RM of this sort for a detailed analysis. These publications do not do this consistently even in the same publication in many cases, and over-capitalize all sorts of things; English is not the native language there, and the English used is quirky. WP doesn't drop its own manual of style to do weird stuff to match colloquial regional usage. Nor do we mimic journalism-specific usage anyway (see WP:NOT#NEWS); the over-capitalizing habits of news writing are not found in mainstream style guides like Chicago Manual of Style and New Hart's Rules (which is why MOS:CAPS also defaults to lowercase unless we're certain a capital letter belongs there in formal writing). We only use a capital letter when RS do so with virtually uniform consistency.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  14:20, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support with SMcCandlish's mod – I checked sources on some of the "Xxx line" and verified that they are not consistently capped in sources, so not to be interpreted as proper names per MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 18:12, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment @Dicklyon and SMcCandlish: should "Airport Express" be lowercase as well, or does it retain "E"? Jc86035 (talk) 04:51, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
    Good question. Most sources do cap that, but not all; see Jane's. I could go either way on that. Dicklyon (talk) 04:58, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
    Seems like a proper-name case to me. It's "nouning" of an evocative adjective. I.e., in longer form it would be "Airport Express line". Head-scratching style questions are usually easier to figure out if you substitute meaning-similar but less-common words. If it were called the "Airport Rocket line" we'd spell it that way. Same goes for descriptive "line" alternatives. If it were the "Airport Express tramway" or "Airport Express light rail" that's also how we'd treat it, not "Airport Express Tramway", etc. See "Extended Discussion", below, for some meta-analysis about these sorts of names as a class, with comparison to previous cases (plus, why our "only capitalize if virtually all RS do it" approach saves us from a lot of tedious case-by-case research and analysis).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  06:43, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support, with lowercase line, but uppercase Express in Airport Express. I have no problems with this given the reasoning above and consensus built in the RfC in WP:TRAINS. Also agree it should be implemented for other China metro systems which share the same naming style currently. I would like to see some more input or at least, acknowledgment from editors who primarily edit and maintain these articles so they are aware of the change. Heights(Want to talk?) 05:45, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
    @Heights: Not a lot of editors seem to regularly maintain these articles and most page moves have been by just a few editors, AFAIK, though ASDFGH moved (without RM) 33 other articles for numbered rapid transit lines in China after I started this RM. Jc86035 (talk) 12:51, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support with SMcCandlish's tweak.--Aervanath (talk) 20:10, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose with lower case "line". Line X or Xyz Line is the official name of these subway lines. See [1].#ForeverLove — FRDian 你一定要好好的 13:13, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
    @FRDian: See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters. People writing in specific topic areas apparently tend to over-capitalize a lot so we ignore that since our audience is everyone. For example, in project documents MTRC/Beijing MTRC might capitalize "Tunnel Boring Machine" most of the time but we don't since it's not necessary to do so. I am ambivalent about this though I don't think it matters much. Jc86035 (talk) 15:11, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Extended discussion

This is all very similar to the naming of articles on domestic animal breeds, which we've been over in a 3-year series of RMs and years of prior discussions. It's Anatolian Black cattle (just called the Anatolian Black among breeders) and American Landrace pig; the breed name is (conventionally but not entirely universally – another debate for another time, if we want a bunch of drama) treated as a proper name, but the descriptive species name tacked on at the end is not. There are exceptions in both breed and transit cases, where the word at the end is an integral part of the name. This happens the name isn't descriptive, and without the final word it makes no sense because it is (in the real world) unacceptably ambiguous without it; thus, e.g., the Norwegian Forest Cat, American Quarter Horse, and Olympic Station. (the NFC isn't a woodland, the AQH isn't a coin, and OS isn't the Olympics or at Mount Olympus).

In all of these special proper-name cases the name is also evocative/metaphoric/honorific not descriptive: NFCs are not actually from a forest and have nothing to do with the woods; AQHs are not part-horse-part-something-else nor tiny nor cut into pieces; and Olympic Sta. doesn't have any intrinsic connection at all to the Olympics or to a street named Olympic or to anything else of which it could be descriptive or to which it is geographically connected named "Olympic", but is an honorary name in reference to a specific person [though weirdly vague about it]. By contrast, New Airport line and the Airport Express [line] really do just describe lines going to airports. Compare also Olympic Park railway line, a line actually going to that park. See also Van Ness station (the station at Van Ness Ave.) versus Grand Central Station (now Grand Central Terminal), another evocative/metaphoric name, like Pacific Ocean and Rocky Mountains. And so on.

English is at an annoying transitional phase right now, which makes this stuff complicated. A century ago, all of these things would have been capitalized (people actually used to even capitalize occupations, as in "the Painter Vincent Van Gogh", season names, and many other things), and a century before that it was common to capitalize all nouns, German-style. In another 100 years, we'll probably lower-case everything under discussion here and much more besides, given the long trend away from capitals. This is one of the reasons we have a "just lowercase it unless the sources consistently capitalize it" rule; it prevents us having to do this sort of proper-versus-descriptive analysis every single time (which often requires actual research about why something has the name it does). It's time better spent on real content instead of style trivia.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  06:43, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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