Talk:Legal system of Saudi Arabia/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: QatarStarsLeague (talk · contribs) 05:38, 19 November 2012 (UTC) This is a monstrously prodigious article to surmount, but I will try! QatarStarsLeague (talk) 05:38, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Lead

Okay so far, so good. No issues with the lead. Although a reference might be helpful for these lines: (King Abdullah, in 2007, introduced a number of significant judicial reforms, although they are yet to be fully implemented.), as well as this one: (The government therefore announced its intention to codify Sharia in 2010.)

• I assumed that, per WP:LEADCITE, that would be unnecessary/redundant because the statements are subject to citations in the body of the article i.e. citations currently numbered 35 and 28 respectively, but can add if you think it's necssary. DeCausa (talk) 22:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

You are correct, you don't. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 03:09, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

History

The image is good, and the text is impeccable. I am really impressed with the flow and eloquence of this article. A definite pass!

• Thanks! DeCausa (talk) 22:40, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Sources of law

"The primary source of law in Saudi Arabia is the Islamic Sharia derived from the Qu'ran and the traditions of Muhammad contained in the Sunnah." Comma after Sharia please.
"The legal system of Saudi Arabia is exceptional in the world of Islam in that Muslim countries that retain or adopt Sharia usually determine which parts of the Sharia are enforceable and codify (and thereby modernize) them." Comma after Islam please.
"It is, therefore, unique not only compared to Western systems but also compared to other Muslim countries, and is the closest system to the form of Sharia adopted in the Muslim world at the advent of Islam." Here is how I believe this sentence should be written: It is, therefore, unique not only comparative to Western systems, but also when compared to other Muslim countries...

• All of above done. DeCausa (talk) 22:30, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

"the Minister of Justice announced plans to implement a codification of Sharia law, although resistance from the religious establishment is reportedly delaying its implementation." Any updates on the matter?

• I don't believe anything has happened on it. The last mention of the issue in the press that I can find is this reference from October 2011, which confirms that nothing seems to have happened. There have certainly been no announcements. DeCausa (talk) 23:02, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

"Royal decrees supplement Sharia in areas such as labor, commercial and corporate law.[29] Additionally, traditional tribal law and custom remain significant." First off, I take it that Royal decrees often provide jurisprudence in areas where Sharia doesn't, such as corporate governance, white collar crime, or designating stipulations for natural resource exploitation?

• Correct. Is there something that needs to be added? DeCausa (talk) 23:08, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

No, just wondering :) QatarStarsLeague (talk) 03:10, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, how do tribal customs and laws stay significant?

• The source says it continues to be significant, but I haven't actual found any illustrations of that. I'll check further and see if I provide an example. DeCausa (talk) 23:08, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 03:10, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• Example of marriage customs added to article. DeCausa (talk) 21:20, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Court structure

I will hold of for now, at least until you have been given time to address these issues. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 19:22, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Okay, we are ready to re-commence.
"At present there are two types of courts of first instance: general courts and summary courts dealing with lesser cases." Comma after present.
That is all for this section

• Done. DeCausa (talk) 17:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Judges

"The Grand Mufti, the highest religious authority in the country, is the most senior member of the judicial establishment, and his opinions are highly influential among the Saudi judiciary." Could you make a passing reference as to who the Grand Mufti is. I.E., The Grand Mufti, a position currently held by (person), is the highest religious authority in the country. If you don't want to do this, just wikilink to his article, if such an article exists.
Other than this, section looks great.

• Changed to read "The Grand Mufti (currently, Abdul-Aziz Al ash-Sheikh) is the most senior member of the judicial establishment as well as being the highest religious authority in the country; his opinions are highly influential among the Saudi judiciary." DeCausa (talk) 17:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Recent reforms and developments

This section looks exceedingly sound.

Law Enforcement

Very explanatory section. Although I propose now changes, might I just passively hint towards the possibility of a subsection devoted to the Mutaween. They are notable around the world, and the subsection may be more explanatory and informative than the few sentences given in the section currently.

• Created Mutawa sub-heading. Also, for balance created a "regular and secret police" sub-heading. DeCausa (talk) 17:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Constitutional law

Per the norm, this brings clarity to a section that otherwise might be consternating.

• Thanks! DeCausa (talk) 17:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Criminal law

"The country's first criminal procedure code was introduced in 2001 and contains provisions borrowed from Egyptian and French law." Maybe you could provide just one singular example of a provision borrowed from each country's legal system.
When you speak of taking oath, does this constitute the taking of oath in Western courts, replacing the Bible with the Quran? Or is it substantially different? Please explain either way.
"Saudi officials and religious figures have criticized this trend and said that the practise of diyya has become corrupted." How is this being palliated, if it is. If not, what is being done?
This section passes if these changes are made.

• I'll need to research the above points, and will respond as soon as I can. (Also, haven't forgotten I need to respond on the tribal customs point above).

Sounds great! QatarStarsLeague (talk) 02:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• I've added a footnote on the oath explaining that there is a form words for the opening of the oath and that it is not necessary to place the hand on the Qu'ran but this is often done. I can find no specific examples of Egyptian and French law in the code. The problem is that because the courts have ignored it and it is effectively a dead letter, very few have bothered to write on it. As far as diyya is concerned I can find no further commentary from official or religious sources on the issue. Getting commentary critical of aspects of Saudi society from official sources is rare so I think it unlikely that there I'm going to be able to find anything further. DeCausa (talk) 22:13, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Family law

I will stop here to allow you time to make the changes.
Starting again...
"Men have a unlilateral right to divorce their wives (talaq) without needing any legal justification." Misspelled unilateral.
"The divorced wife can claim financial support for a period of four months and ten days afterwards." Does this mean the wife (formerly) can receive support for a maximum of 4 months and ten days, or is that the window in which they can file their claim? I would assume it is the latter, as 4 months and ten days in an irregular chronological length. Please clarify this in the article.
Other than that, this section looks good.

• Spelling corrected. I've checked the source and the period of support (not the time to make the claim) is indeed 4 months and 10 days. I've therefore re-worded it to say: "The husband's obligation is then to provide financial support for the divorced wife for a period of four months and ten days." DeCausa (talk) 22:23, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Commercial and contract law

"It is believed the back-log has now been reduced." Do we have a specific estimate?
Everything else is good. Exceptional clarity here.

• No, sorry I can't find any estimate of the back=log. There are no officially published statistics. DeCausa (talk) 22:24, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Labor law

All good here.

Property law

"Property investments by non-Saudis of more than 30 million Saudi riyals require approval of the Council of Ministers and foreigners remain prohibited from owning property in Medina and Mecca." I didn't even know Saudis themselves were allowed to own property in Medina or Mecca.
"The undeveloped land comprises rough grazing, pasture and wilderness." Wilderness is desert or xeric scrubland, correct?
Everything else good.

• Yes, in fact Mecca in particular private enterprise in owning hotels, shopping malls etc is a very big thing. Wilderness: yes, desert and scrubland. Does that need clarification in the article? DeCausa (talk) 22:27, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

No to the clarification. I know that there are hotels and other commercial amenities in Mecca, but I though they were owned by the government. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 00:00, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Energy law

"It is the world's biggest oil producer, the middle east's biggest company and is considered to be indisputably the most important energy company in the world." Middle East needs to be capitalized. Also, indisputable is a meaningful word. Maybe generally, or widely considered to be could be used?
Why is there no mention of natural gas? Just a sentence or two would be fine.
Everything else passes.

• All done. DeCausa (talk) 22:40, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Human rights

Stopping here to allow you deference to make changes. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 17:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, starting up again.

Looks like a great entryway into the rest of the passage.

Rule of law

Looking good here.

Women's rights

"The World Economic Forum 2010 Global Gender Gap Report ranked Saudi Arabia 129th out of 134 countries for gender parity." Maybe you could state within the article who is last on the gender parity rankings, as some readers may immediately wonder.
Concise, and unbiased.

• Updated it for the 2012 report and listed the (now) 4 countries below it. DeCausa (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Criminal trials and punishments

"Most trials are held in secret." As in a secret location, or just no press involved?
Everything else good.

• No press or public present - I've added a clarification. DeCausa (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Religious freedom

All good.

LGBT rights

Aren't a few Muslim nations and Uganda the only ones who practice death penalty for those acts? Anyway, good section.

Yes, I think that's right. DeCausa (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Conclusion

This is a great, eruditely written article. Once all the pressing issues are mitigated, I can and will pass this article. Congratulations! QatarStarsLeague (talk) 00:37, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks very much, and thanks for all the work you've done. I think I've covered all the points now. DeCausa (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2012 (UTC)