Talk:Left 4 Dead/Archive 2

To A class and beyond

The article was rated as a Good Article with only a few concerns by the reviewer. What issues do we need to fix before moving onto A class? I can see citations as an issue, everything in the article seems to have a source but we can improve clarity (transcribing developer commentary provides excellent sources). Maybe improving the flow of the first paragraph of development.Skeith (talk) 19:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Left 4 Dead firearms

There is no official source as to what real life firearms the characters are using, and as already discussed under the pump-action shotgun topic, they are probably fictional anyway. I have therefore taken the liberty of changing the description of the weapons in the game to generic descriptions rather specific model names. The only sourced reference regarding the firearms was to a fan site that itself referenced a gamespy review, wherein it was suggested that the pistol was a Springfield M1911 Bureau, .45 ACP. This is not a good source. Besides, the pistol has fifteen rounds in it. What variant of the M1911 has ever had such a high-capacity magazine?

80.251.195.102 (talk) 13:10, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The names of the guns are clearly defined in the games files. BJ^Talk 13:32, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

On top of that, the rest of the models are fairly easy to identify aside from the pump-action. Also just FYI, Para-Ordinance makes a double-stack 1911 that can hold 14+1 rounds, so it's possible to have 1911's with capacities that high. LogisticEarth (talk) 13:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I am well aware of the Canadian Para-Ordnance (spelled without the "i") series of high-capacity .45 ACPs (and as you stated yourself, it has 14 rounds plus one in the chamber, not 15 rounds in the magazine), but the suggestion was that the pistol was a Springfield M1911, which has a magazine capacity of 8, as far as I recall. Most other single-stack .45 ACP pistols have the same or lower magazine capacity. As for being able to identify the weapons by looking at their silhouette, I think that constitutes "original research", which I thought we were to avoid on Wikipedia. Besides, many games use firearms that look like a real life firearm, but isn't in every detail, as it is a fictional gun. While we're on that subject, if the assault rifle is really an M16, why does it have 50 rounds in normal-size magazine? Why does the Uzi? However, all this is moot, if the names are in the game files, as BJweeks stated. BJ, can you point to where I can find this? I can't seem to locate the names anywhere. Thank you in advance. 80.251.195.102 (talk) 14:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The "C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\left 4 dead\left4dead" directory holds the "weapon_*.txt" files that points to model names.

• Auto shotty: "models/w_models/weapons/w_autoshot_m4super.mdl"
• Hunting rifle: "models/w_models/weapons/w_sniper_mini14.mdl"
• Pistol: "models/w_models/weapons/w_pistol_1911.mdl"
• Dual pistols: "models/w_models/weapons/w_dual_pistol_1911.mdl"
• Shotty: "models/w_models/weapons/w_shotgun.mdl"
• M16: "models/w_models/weapons/w_rifle_m16a2.mdl"
• Uzi: "models/w_models/weapons/w_smg_uzi.mdl"

The shotgun has no name and the M16 is incorrectly identified functionally, but the A2 and A3 looks the same, thus are the same from a modelers standpoint. BJ^Talk 14:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

That'll learn me not to check my sources. I'll have to take your word for it, though; I still can't find it. There are no weapons_*.txt files in my directory that I could find. Yeah, I know, I am computer illiterate. I found something else, though.

In C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\left 4 dead\left4dead\sound\weapons, the firearms have folders with their sounds called auto_shotgun, dual_pistol, hunting_rifle, pistol, rifle, shotgun and SMG.

In the C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\left 4 dead\left4dead\models\v_models, the files associated with the weapons are called anim_v_AutoShotgun, anim_v_DualPistols, anim_v_smg, etc. All generic titles, no specific model names. Strange.

In the end, I guess it doesn't matter. I would find it more appropriate that we called the weapons what they are called in-game in any case (where they are referred to as hunting rifle, SMG, etc.), not what they are referred to in some game files. Otherwise we could also call the protagonists Teen_Angst or Nam_Vet, as they are referred to in the files. Just my personal feeling.

If we are to have the real world names for the guns, we should find a more appropriate reference, though, like the game files you found, rather than a site that itself refers to a gamespy review, I would think.

80.251.195.102 (talk) 20:13, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Moved below unsigned comment on the pistol from my Jan 8 2009 comment (I am on another computer, hence the different IP), so as not to confuse people on what I said, and what somebody else said. Please sign your comments, and post separate from other users' comments, thank you. 80.196.177.84 (talk) 09:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

--- The Pistol --- The information posted by Valve (cited in the Wiki entry) does indeed claim the pistol is a "Springfied Arms .45 cal M1911", however, owning one, I can vouch that it only holds 8 .45 cal ACP rounds - 7 in the clip, 1 in the tube. The clip cannot be double stack, the design of the weapon can't handle one. It would require a 9mm version of the weapon to load 15 rounds (these weapons do exist, see Wiki article "M1911"), however, this conflicts with Valve statements. The pistol in the game functions more closely to the M9, the military version of the Berreta 92FS, which is 9mm, holds 15 rounds and is double action (as opposed to the single action M1911), but the game graphic does not look like the M9.

• It's a game, and not one specifically dedicated to realism. We have to go with what Valve publishes on it; anything else is probably WP:OR. DP76764 (Talk) 18:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

BAFTA award

Just in case no-one knows, Left 4 Dead won a BAFTA award (yes, the same people who dish out film awards at a rank just below the Oscars) for best multiplayer award earlier today. [1][2][3] BAFTA, Golden Joystick and similar awards are heads above the common likes of IGN's game of the year, so some mention of it should be in the article. More sources will probably be made available soon, its just a little too soon after the actual event. You'd probably also be a lot better off getting that awards section into prose, rather than a list; that will hold you up at FA level. -- Sabre (talk) 23:57, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I made a first pass at it Skeith (talk) 11:27, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Left 4 Dead is NOT a survival horror

A number of people on other forums have commented that every time this point is changed, someone always changes it back to survival horror. Left 4 Dead's gameplay does not even coincide with the definition of Survival Horror on Wikipedia. Notably "These games are part of the broader genre of action-adventure games." Hence why older Resident Evil games, Silent Hill and Alone in the Dark are classified as Survival Horror. Left 4 Dead is not. Simply having zombies is not reason enough to define a game as survival horror.

Furthermore, no publication refers to Left 4 Dead as survival horror.

Sci-Fi First-Person Shooter [4] First-Person Shooter [5] Action [6] Sci-Fi Shooter [7]

Infact, Wikipedia seems to be the only publication which thinks that left 4 dead is a survival horror, not even the creators of the game have ever called it such. On Steam it is defined simply as "action"

I would like to change the genre back to what it is, that is a "horror themed first person shooter", this game is in no way survival horror --220.235.233.50 (talk) 03:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

"video game genre inspired by horror films in which the player's primary objective is to survive and/or escape a threat typical of horror fiction, usually zombies or supernatural beings of some sort"(...)"In order to create feelings of suspense, the game is designed to leave the player feeling vulnerable, and thus powerful weapons such as rocket launchers are rare.[6] Ammunition is usually sparse,[7] and the number of enemies is large..." where does it not coincide with the game ? Hervegirod (talk) 03:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Ammunition in left 4 dead definetly is not sparse, just because some of the quotes apply doesn't mean it's the same genre. I could say in a mario game you role play mario, doesn't make it an RPG. In Warcraft3 you have heroes who can level up and gain items, also doesn't make it an RPG. What your describing is "horror", and yes the game has a horror theme. What you have to do to apply the genre of "survival horror" is to prove that Left 4 Dead is a subset of the "action adventure" genre, as in resident evil, silent hill etc.

All this is irrelevent however, as the actual developer doesn't even define it as a survival horror, and neither does any other publication. Why do the members here think they know better then the actual creator of the game and every professional publication in existance : / --220.235.233.50 (talk) 03:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the sources you listed are credible because according to them, Dead Space is:

• Sci-Fi Shooter (GameSpot)
• Third-Person Action Adventure (IGN)
• Action (1UP)
• Third-person Sci-fi (GameFAQs)
• Action (Steam)

While searching for L4D:

• MobyGames labels it as "survival horror".
• Your IGN link calls it "an ambitious survival horror game" under the "About This Game" section.
• A 1UP video calls it a "horror survival shooter".
• An earlier GameSpot article calls it "a survival horror game".

—LOL ^T/_C 03:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Thats because dead space is a sci-fi shooter, action game, action adventure (in the same way Zelda is), and it's also a third person shooter, all that makes sense. All your refrences to left 4 dead being a survival horror are based on written prose, or video's in passing. No official statments specifically define it as a survival horror. When ever Left 4 Dead is classified it is always refered to as either an action game or shooter of some description, never a survival horror.

The whole survival horror genre was developed to describe Alone in the Dark, and later applied to games like silent hill and resident evil. No matter what the wikipedia community wants to believe, you can't just shoe-horn a game into a classification simply because it involves "surviving" and "horror". As I've said, if that were the case I could define nearly every game as an RPG since in nearly every game I'm playing a certain role. Official statments do not refer to Left 4 Dead as a survival horror, neither do game publications. The developers, who I believe are a valid source as to the genre of thier own game, define it as "action". --220.235.233.50 (talk) 04:13, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Dead Space is survival horror according to MetaCritic and MobyGames. Whether my sources are in prose or attached to a video, they do confirm L4D as "survival horror".

I'm interested in your source for "The whole survival horror genre was developed to describe Alone in the Dark, and later applied to games like silent hill and resident evil."

As far as I understand, your RPG analogy is irrelevant because most games aren't labeled as RPGs by any publication, and I've shown some publications that do label L4D as survival horror.

If we were to conclude that L4D is not a survival horror game simply because Steam does not label it as such, then by that logic, L4D is not a first-person shooter—which would be absurd. —LOL ^T/_C 04:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, you just said that 5 or so sources which claim dead space isn't survival horror are wrong due to 2 sources which say it is... My source for survival horror being developed to describe alone in the dark and resident evil is from the Wikipedia article on survival horror, and it's also common knowledge. That is what defines a survival horror game.

Your sources also do not confirm that left 4 dead is a survival horror, some random people in interviews, and a couple of authors of articles call it a survival horror in passing. The actual websites under the "genre" label of the game, never say it's a survival horror. They call it "action" or "first person shooter" mostly. The reason that steam can call it action is because it is in the action genre, a game can have multiple genres and steam chooses to label it as action.

Your sources are all from individual opinionated PEOPLE, my sources are from the developers, and infact also every site you've mentioned. I've simply quoted the organisations opinion, rather then that of a few random individuals. The fact is, official sources have never said the game is a survival horror, every one of them, and the vast majority of individuals do not count Left 4 Dead as survival horror. You can't simply label a game based on your opinion and then find a couple of individuals to back you up. The material from the developers, as well as every publication claim the game is NOT survival horror. Hence it should be changed. By simple logic, this game does not apply to the genre, a survival horror is a SUBSET of the advanture genre, ie the point and click adventure games of old. Hence why they always require the user to solve puzzles and combine items and such in order to continue. --220.235.233.50 (talk) 05:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I think it's more... Action Horror? Not really survival horror, but there're still horror bits in it.--D3115 (talk) 06:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, you just completely missed the simple point of the Dead Space comparison. I refuted your list of sources by pointing out that Dead Space, a survival horror game (confirmed by EA senior staff, along with MobyGames and MetaCritic), is not labeled as "survivor horror". Because your sources do not list a survivor horror game as such, they are not credible.

My sources indeed confirm that L4D is survival horror; unless MobyGames, IGN, etc. themselves are all opinionated people or random interviewees—which they are not. If Steam can call L4D "action" because it's a FPS, then it can also call it "action" because it's a survival horror game. You did not provide any reference for your claim that survival horror is a subset of the adventure game. Don't insinuate that this discussion is based on my opinion, especially if you're going to make unreferenced assertions about the survival horror genre being a subset of the adventure game with puzzles and combining items. —LOL ^T/_C 06:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

← ok from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_horror "These games are part of the broader genre of action-adventure games,[11][12]" refrences being "Richard J. Hand (2004). "Proliferating Horrors: Survival Horror and the Resident Evil Franchise". in Steffen Hantke. Horror Film. Univ. Press of Mississippi." and "Mathias Mertens / Tobias O. Meißner (2006). Wir waren Space Invaders Geschichten vom Computerspielen. Katrin Blumenkamp." Refrences also being ign, gamespot, 1up, gamefaqs, gamerankings and the developer, none of which call it survival horror.

So, can we change it now? <_<

Here's some more "The adventure-derived survival horror genre, started with Alone in the Dark in 1992 and Resident Evil in 1996, is the most identifiable remnant of the genre still heavily active." [8]

"In fact, let's forget the tired genre completely. That lethargically-paced subset of adventure gaming" [9]

found some more refrences. Take note the article on wikipedia on survival horror http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_horror

" Although the survival horror genre was named and defined by Resident Evil,[14] it was predated by earlier works such as Sweet Home, Clock Tower: The First Fear,[1] and Alone in the Dark, which had an influence on the creation of Resident Evil.[15][14][2]"

no mention of any games anything like Left 4 Dead, if left 4 dead is survival horror, so is a game like Prey. Infact, Prey would be more-so as it has the heavy pacing and attempt to instill fear that is a major part of the genre. Unless you can convince the contributers to the Survival Horror article on wikipedia that this type of gameplay as survival horror, we can't call left 4 dead survival horror, or the two articles would contradict each other.

Wikipedia is not a legitimate source of information (per WP:SPS), and I can't verify whether refs 11 and 12 actually apply to that statement. However, the GameSpot article that the survival horror article cites does say, "You might not think about team-based online multiplayer going hand-in-hand with 'survival horror' ... [b]ut Turtle Rock Studios ... is doing just that with Left 4 Dead."

The article on Everything2 is self-published, and "Ryan O'Donnell" is the most opinionated source mentioned so far.

As for Prey being survival horror, I don't see MobyGames or IGN calling it that. They do, however, for L4D.

Anyhow, I think I'll stop being the devil's advocate because our post quality has dwindled, so I'll go with my stance prior to engaging in this discussion: game genres are not just black-and-white; L4D is survival horror, bearing many of the genre's elements, but is primarily a first-person shooter. Take Portal for example: it is quite unarguably a puzzle, first-person, and sci-fi all at the same time. Unless anybody else has something to say, I would at least move "survival horror" below "first-person shooter" in the infobox, but I'm not sure about getting rid of it altogether. —LOL ^T/_C 07:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

haha, yeah look, I'm not saying remove all refrence to it being survival horror, it's just that survival horror is definetly not the games primary genre. Keep survival horror in the infobox, but as you say move it down, and the genre in the article should be something along the lines of "horror themed first person shooter". It's definetly got a survival horror theme, but it's not the main genre here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.235.233.50 (talk) 07:10, 19 March 2009

Judging from the heading section and your initial comments, I got the impression that you thought that L4D was not survival horror in the very least. ;)

I think I ought to simply remove "survival horror" from the opening sentence because L4D is definitely much more of a first-person shooter. The first sentence of the second paragraph is sufficient in describing the horror theme; I'm hesitant about adding "horror-themed" because I can't find a source that says just that. —LOL ^T/_C 07:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

haha a long discussion over a misunderstanding. I agree with what you say, and the edits look good. As for the matter of the game being horror themed, I guess thats kinda down to interpretation. It's definetly designed around a horror concept, it's meant to feel like an old horror B movie, though it's probably meant to be taken more tongue in cheek. --220.235.233.50 (talk) 07:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Yep, if it's down to interpretation, then I'm afraid it could get marked as original research. —LOL ^T/_C 08:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I would like to add that Dead Space is survival horror because it is intended to scare people, while Left 4 Dead is action because it is like Half-Life 2 but based in a zombie setting. L4D is not meant to scare people like Dead Space, and people looking for a similar thrill in L4D, as in Dead Space, would be sorely disappointed. Sure some parts could seem scary, but that's like saying Mario is scary because a Goomba just appeared behind me and made me jump. 74.37.151.174 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC).

Do you have a reliable source for all of those claims? —LOL ^T/_C 02:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

another thing: A lot of critics mention how faithful the game is to the zombie film genre. Considering that, removing "survival horror" from the game would be a little ridiculous IMHO. And the fact that "survival horror" is used to describe games such as Silent Hill or Resident Evil does not mean that only games which are based on the same gameplay are survival horror. Hervegirod (talk) 22:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

A zombie film setting does not automatically make the game a survival horror game. Again, while Left 4 Dead is sometimes labeled as "survival horror", it is not its principal genre. I'd say the second paragraph adequately describes L4D's setting anyway. —LOL ^T/_C 22:38, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The objective of the game is survival. Whether that makes the game part of the survival genre is up to you. The game is a shooter. That part is unquestionable. The game has zombies. Whether zombies makes it a horror is up to you. Annihilatron (talk) 16:59, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is this even up for discussion? The game combines distinct horror elements (zombies and gore, among others) with a strong sense of vulnerability due to an almost perpetual lack of supplies and an overwhelming number of foes. That's right up with the sources cited in our own article about the term. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 19:50, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Because few sources label L4D as a survival horror game. According to Wikipedia policy, we're not allowed to just look at the definition of the genre, look at L4D, and then WP:SYNTHesize a conclusion. What we can do, however, is say that it is a first-person shooter (as it is ubiquitously labeled in the sources), describe the setting in which the game takes place (second paragraph), and let the reader decide. —LOL ^T/_C 00:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm well aware of WP:SYNTH, but if there are reliable sources that label the game as such, we should just roll with it, instead of having yet another drawn out genre discussion with either side of the dispute scrambling to find the most sources that support their stance. These counting games rarely (if ever) amount to a good consensus or for that matter a more accurate depiction of The Truth™. By the way, this discussion has been subject to some nasty off-wiki canvassing. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 01:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

If we were to put "survival horror" at the same level as "first-person shooter", then I believe we would be giving undue weight to the minority. For every source I've seen (those linked above), if the source labels it "survival horror" then the source also labels it action/first-person shooter; but the converse is false at a very obvious degree. —LOL ^T/_C 02:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I can see where you are coming from, but has it occurred to you that these two terms do not necessarily operate on the same level? One solely describes the game mechanics while the other also conveys aspects of the setting, hence we probably want to have them both. As for order, alphabetic listings are usually a good way sidestep issues of undue weight altogether, which in this case the article already happens to do. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 02:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I understand that "survival horror" has implications on the setting, but I'm worried that its association with the action-adventure genre would cause confusion amongst readers. They won't be able to see intuitively that the list is in alphabetical order, which is why I had tried to make a compromise by removing "survival horror" from the opening sentence while keeping it in the infobox. However, I don't have a very strong stance on this particular issue, so I'll probably trust you on whatever you do with the article. —LOL ^T/_C 20:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

However, I don't have a very strong stance on this particular issue

Me neither, as the second paragraph already describes the setting quite adequately, I don't the term is explicitly needed. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 22:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the best thing to do here is mark it down as a first-person shooter with survival horror elements. It's reasonable (and reliable) to say that the game's is horror theme is implemented not only not the fact that the enemies are undead, but by the situation of vulnerability and intense struggle against huge odds - the ZeroPunctuation review[10] points out that a zombie game is successful if you can replace the undead with koalas and it's still as scary. If L4D does not technically qualify for survival horror, then we just say it shares characteristics with examples from said sub-genre. Savvy? --PenguinCopter (talk) 23:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It does qualify as survivor horror, but that's just not its main genre, so I've taken it out of the lead. If you don't think that the second paragraph adequately describes the survival horror aspect, then I suppose "with survival horror elements" might work. However, I doubt Zero Punctuation is a reliable source when it comes to defining game genres. —LOL ^T/_C 01:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

ITT: Faggots who are completely missing the point. Play the game. Play real survival horror games. L4D is NOT survival horror. It should be labeled as Valve has labeled it, because they made the game. --97.84.161.223 (talk) 05:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Please read the rest of the thread; there are legitimate sources that indicate that L4D is survival horror, but none that refute it. It was also shown that Valve's labels aren't completely reliable; we're not going to say that Portal is not a puzzle game just because Valve only shows "Action". Please also see WP:NPA. —LOL ^T/_C 07:12, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Most of the time you are just trying to get from point A to point B, and so on.

Release Date?

Just noticed that the release date says November 18, 2008, and yet the game hit gold status five days prior to (Nov. 13/08). 64.110.203.39 (talk) 18:00, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

That is correct. Did you follow the link on "gold"? —LOL ^T/_C 18:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)