Talk:La France Insoumise

Translation/Title

I’m not sure that the title of this article is a very good translation. Unsubmissive is not a common or easily parsed word in English and does not convey the meanings of “disobedient, rebellious, unruly” that insoumis(e) has. Off the top of my head I don’t have a perfect suggestion, but maybe something like “France Unbowed” would be better, if a little poetic. —☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 03:00, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree that "unsubmissive" is not a natural English word, but I would say it's better than "unbowed", personally. Though I can't think of a decent alternative either! Online dictionaries suggest "rebellious".. Jdcooper (talk) 11:03, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

The New York Times uses Rebellious France as the translation. Liam987 talk 08:11, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I recently discovered that JLM's videos on YouTube also have English subtitles, so I decided to check those (in the absence of English campaign materials), and almost always they maintain the French name ("La France insoumise") [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]; otherwise, it's "rebel/unsubdued". Unfortunately when it comes to English media, as in France, Mélenchon receives less press coverage than he probably deserves and there doesn't appear to be any single dominant translation in English (and many of the sources I've consulted simply avoid naming it entirely). I think it's most sensible to defer to the French name. Mélencron (talk) 01:51, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. I wonder if User:Léodras has an opinion, as the main contributor.. Jdcooper (talk) 12:46, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

I have also noticed that The Guardian uses "Unbowed France". It seems that there is no official translation, and I have no idea which one would be the best, as I'm not a native english speaker. All that I can say is that "Unsubmissive France" is more common in Google than others translations, but I don't know why. Léodras (talk) 13:46, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Probably because of this Wikipedia article, frankly. Mélencron (talk) 14:00, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Probably, yes. But I agree with the original poster that "unsubmissive France" is neither natural English nor the same in feeling as the French original, so I would support a move to the French title. Jdcooper (talk) 14:20, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

I support this to be moved to either more natural English "Unbowed France" (as used by a notable English source such as The Guardian) or (if the original name's feeling is lost with the translation) to leave it just as "La France insoumise" as per WP:NCPP. Impru20 (talk) 11:30, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I support this too ! Léodras (talk) 10:46, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Il me semble qu'un bien meilleure traduction serait "Untamed France". Ca conserve les notions couvertes par "insoumise", la négation et il me semble bien l'avoir vu passer dans une ou deux traduction britaniques. Trenien04 (talk) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

I've read "Indomitable France" as a better translation - this English-language version of France24 discusses: http://www.france24.com/en/20170414-france-politics-presidential-race-unsubmissive-awkward-translations-melenchon-macron-fillon Quee1797 (talk) 15:04, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Deepl.com suggest using Insubordinated witch i do think represent pretty well the original semantic. --Eric1212 (talk) 22:51, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

This seems like the best suggestion to me thus far. It preserves the sense of the word and the negation as "in-" (thus also preserving the abbreviation in a way that makes sense in English). Mélencron (talk) 15:36, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

That may be true, but it seems pretty clear that there is no consensus within English language sources, so we should go with the original title with a note about various translations. Should someone make the move? Jdcooper (talk) 17:11, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Currently reads "... also known in English as Unbowed France, France Unbowed, Untamed France, France Untamed, Defiant France, Rebellious France, Indomitable France, or Unsubmissive France)" - which seems ridiculous to me. Could we ask a bilingual, native French speaker to suggest the 'best nuance' (in bold) with max. of 1-2 alternatives perhaps? Roy Bateman (talk) 16:07, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

No, because that's original research. Those alternatives are listed because they have all been used in the English-language press. However, I do think that if any of them have only been used once or twice, we would be justified in leaving them out.. Jdcooper (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Roy Bateman that it's just absolutely awful to list over half a dozen alternatives in the first sentence of the article. They should be included, but preferably somewhere else in the article, and in a more tidy fashion. Finally, the description of the group's logo does not belong in the first sentence of the lead either. — Μαρκος Δ 21:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

French sources, like France 24[8], list it as France Unbowed. Hcoder3104☭ (💬) 17:21, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Euroscepticism

Sounds a bit problematic for a party that demands unilateral withdrawal from EU treaties and the EU itself, to be classified as "soft eurosceptic". Shouldn't the FI be listed as a Hard Eurosceptic (or at least Eurosceptic) instead? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.32.111 (talk) 19:29, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

They don't demand unilateral withdrawal from EU treaties but their renegotiation... so it would not be unilateral. Whereas this party is definitely not pro-EU, making a difference between them and parties asking for a complete and unilateral withdrawal from the EU is totally relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.53.202.229 (talk) 22:08, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Tags

Hi User:DGG, you recently added some cleanup tags to this article. I'm certain that, like most articles, it could use some work, but could you give us some idea which parts you were referring to specifically? Jdcooper (talk) 20:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

the entire tone from beginning to end is propaganda for the party's views. It is necessary to say what they are, but the morei mpt part is what the party has done. Surely someone not affilliate with the part has had something to sya. DGG ( talk ) 21:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Needs improvement

The article reads like it was poorly translated from French in many places — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.52.229.184 (talk) 01:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Communist party

the dude that wrote something here before was a retard :)

Islamo-Leftism

The use of "Islamo-Leftism" on the political description of FI is really problematic. This term is used by the French right to discredit any leftist mouvement, whenever the mouvements contain muslims or not. As Sylvie Tissot, a French sociologist working at Paris-VIII, «L'expression avait évidemment pour but de nous disqualifier, estime-t-elle. A l'époque, le terme désignait un militantisme hétéroclite où l'on retrouvait aussi bien des chrétiens de gauche que des personnes engagées dans la solidarité internationale… D'où, j'imagine, le qualificatif de "gauchistes". », which translates to "The expression was obviously made to disqualify us," she says. "At the time, the term qualified a heteroclit militantism wher you could find leftists christians as well as people engaged in international solidarity... From where, I imagine, the use of "leftism"." (quote from this Libération article). Moreover, this word is widly regarded as a right wing slur, in addition to be the new "judeo-bolchevism" (source in French). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erwan789 (talk • contribs) 12:18, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Since LFI consider Hamas a 'resistance movement' , have refused to acknowledge it as a terrorist organization, and despite having daily communication attacking israel, consistently omit the liberation of the hostages, there is absolutely not doubt that 'LFI' is indeed islamo-leftist. In internal affair they systematical ignore or minimize victim of violence when the aggressor is a muslim, and support and co-opt riot (notably the ones in july 2022, that costed 900+ millions of euro in insured damage)

In the US the video evidence show a clear cut case of justified use of force: in the US when you have a cop on your hood and one on the driver window, weapon drawn, you do not start fleeing _again_ with your car.

But that is what LFI used to foment riot under so-called 'police brutality' heading spinkled with accusation of police racism.

so yeah 'islamo-leftism' is the least that can be used. Shmget (talk) 15:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Political position Left-wing ?

In the political position we have "Left-wing to far-left" but the sources for "Left-wing" talk about the left in general (so including the far-left). In the french page, the position is "Gauche radicale à extrême gauche" so "(Moderate) far-left to far-left". The "Left-wing" should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lsandre (talk • contribs) 18:31, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

If that's the case, a RfC would be needed in order to gain consensus on the English Wiki. Vacant0 (talk) 21:32, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Although now while looking through your edits, they either seem to be biased or you haven't read WP:REF. My recommendation would be to read that first. --Vacant0 (talk) 21:38, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

The political position should be change. The position is (in french) "gauche radicale", a position in french equivalent to a moderate far-left (Radical left wing), to far-left.

Some politologists say that the party is radical left, like:

* Gaël Brustier : https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/301118/france-insoumise-derriere-la-crise-l-impasse-d-un-mouvement-gazeux, or in Le désordre idéologique, Editions du Cerf, 22 septembre 2017, 235 p. (ISBN 978-2-204-12435-5, https://books.google.fr/books?id=pfiBDwAAQBAJ&q=insoumise+radicale#v=snippet&q=insoumise%20radicale&f=false).

* Pierre Martin, Crise mondiale et systèmes partisans, Presses de SciencesPo, 1er novembre 2018, 326 p. (ISBN 978-2-7246-2342-0, https://books.google.fr/books?id=JnF0DwAAQBAJ&q=%22perc%C3%A9e+spectaculaire%22#v=snippet&q=%22perc%C3%A9e%20spectaculaire%22&f=false)

* Pascal Perrineau, Le vote disruptif : Les élections présidentielles et législatives de 2017, Presses de Sciences Po, 16 novembre 2017, 448 p. (ISBN 978-2-7246-2167-9, https://books.google.fr/books?id=g4M_DwAAQBAJ&q=%22importante+de+la+gauche+radicale%22#v=snippet&q=%22importante%20de%20la%20gauche%20radicale%22&f=false).

or far-left:

* Dominique Reynié : https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2017/05/RIMBERT/57489

French journalists used to call the party radical left:

* https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2017/06/12/la-gauche-radicale-en-position-de-remporter-une-dizaine-de-circonscriptions-seulement_5143273_4355770.html

* https://www.lemonde.fr/election-presidentielle-2017/article/2017/03/17/hamon-melenchon-la-gauche-a-deux-voies_5096035_4854003.html

* https://www.lemonde.fr/election-presidentielle-2017/article/2017/04/26/presidentielle-melenchon-federe-la-contestation-de-gauche_5117738_4854003.html

* https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/la-france-insoumise-le-parti-de-jean-luc-melenchon_1916723.html

* https://www.lepoint.fr/politique/melenchon-tribun-insoumis-de-la-gauche-radicale-francaise-23-04-2017-2121822_20.php

or far-left:

* https://www.ouest-france.fr/europe/grande-bretagne/l-un-d-entre-nous-va-bien-arriver-gagner-les-elections-melenchon-rencontre-le-leader-du-labour-5984081

* https://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2018/08/25/2856888-melenchon-veut-mettre-raclee-democratique-macron-elections-europeennes.html

* https://www.petitbleu.fr/article/2018/08/30/92702-macron-en-premiere-ligne-face-aux-populistes.html

* https://www.bfmtv.com/politique/antisemitisme-que-reproche-t-on-a-la-france-insoumise_AN-201902180104.html

* https://www.capital.fr/economie-politique/jean-luc-melenchon-et-marine-le-pen-l-etonnante-ressemblance-de-leurs-programmes-economiques-1204870

* https://fr.euronews.com/2019/09/19/proces-de-jean-luc-melenchon-le-chef-de-la-france-insoumise-risque-prison-amende-et-inelig

* https://www.francesoir.fr/politique-france/la-france-insoumise-souverainiste-et-nationaliste-se-rapproche-t-elle-du-rn

* https://www.20minutes.fr/rennes/2081763-20170608-legislatives-plebiscitee-presidentielles-france-insoumise-nourrit-ambitions-rennes

* https://www.sudouest.fr/politique/jean-luc-melenchon/crise-a-la-france-insoumise-la-methode-jean-luc-melenchon-remise-en-question-2582666.php

directly or by association.

Lsandre (talk) 21:21, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Political Position

Should we update the political position into the infobox to "Radical left to far-left". Lsandre (talk) 20:07, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The political position should be change. The position is (in french) "gauche radicale", a position in french equivalent to a moderate far-left (Radical left wing), to far-left.

Some politologists say that the party is radical left, like:

• Gaël Brustier : https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/301118/france-insoumise-derriere-la-crise-l-impasse-d-un-mouvement-gazeux, or in Le désordre idéologique, Editions du Cerf, 22 septembre 2017, 235 p. (ISBN 978-2-204-12435-5, https://books.google.fr/books?id=pfiBDwAAQBAJ&q=insoumise+radicale#v=snippet&q=insoumise%20radicale&f=false).
• Pierre Martin, Crise mondiale et systèmes partisans, Presses de SciencesPo, 1er novembre 2018, 326 p. (ISBN 978-2-7246-2342-0, https://books.google.fr/books?id=JnF0DwAAQBAJ&q=%22perc%C3%A9e+spectaculaire%22#v=snippet&q=%22perc%C3%A9e%20spectaculaire%22&f=false)
• Pascal Perrineau, Le vote disruptif : Les élections présidentielles et législatives de 2017, Presses de Sciences Po, 16 novembre 2017, 448 p. (ISBN 978-2-7246-2167-9, https://books.google.fr/books?id=g4M_DwAAQBAJ&q=%22importante+de+la+gauche+radicale%22#v=snippet&q=%22importante%20de%20la%20gauche%20radicale%22&f=false).

or far-left:

• Dominique Reynié : https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2017/05/RIMBERT/57489

French journalists used to call the party radical left:

• https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2017/06/12/la-gauche-radicale-en-position-de-remporter-une-dizaine-de-circonscriptions-seulement_5143273_4355770.html
• https://www.lemonde.fr/election-presidentielle-2017/article/2017/03/17/hamon-melenchon-la-gauche-a-deux-voies_5096035_4854003.html
• https://www.lemonde.fr/election-presidentielle-2017/article/2017/04/26/presidentielle-melenchon-federe-la-contestation-de-gauche_5117738_4854003.html
• https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/la-france-insoumise-le-parti-de-jean-luc-melenchon_1916723.html
• https://www.lepoint.fr/politique/melenchon-tribun-insoumis-de-la-gauche-radicale-francaise-23-04-2017-2121822_20.php

or far-left:

• https://www.ouest-france.fr/europe/grande-bretagne/l-un-d-entre-nous-va-bien-arriver-gagner-les-elections-melenchon-rencontre-le-leader-du-labour-5984081
• https://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2018/08/25/2856888-melenchon-veut-mettre-raclee-democratique-macron-elections-europeennes.html
• https://www.petitbleu.fr/article/2018/08/30/92702-macron-en-premiere-ligne-face-aux-populistes.html
• https://www.bfmtv.com/politique/antisemitisme-que-reproche-t-on-a-la-france-insoumise_AN-201902180104.html
• https://www.capital.fr/economie-politique/jean-luc-melenchon-et-marine-le-pen-l-etonnante-ressemblance-de-leurs-programmes-economiques-1204870
• https://fr.euronews.com/2019/09/19/proces-de-jean-luc-melenchon-le-chef-de-la-france-insoumise-risque-prison-amende-et-inelig
• https://www.francesoir.fr/politique-france/la-france-insoumise-souverainiste-et-nationaliste-se-rapproche-t-elle-du-rn
• https://www.20minutes.fr/rennes/2081763-20170608-legislatives-plebiscitee-presidentielles-france-insoumise-nourrit-ambitions-rennes
• https://www.sudouest.fr/politique/jean-luc-melenchon/crise-a-la-france-insoumise-la-methode-jean-luc-melenchon-remise-en-question-2582666.php

directly or by association. Lsandre (talk) 20:07, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Lsandre: what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 3,200 bytes, the statement above (from the {{rfc}} tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for Legobot (talk · contribs) to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Politics, government, and law. The RfC may also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:22, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Should we update the political position into the infobox to "Radical left to far-left". Lsandre (talk) 21:41, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Then it needs to follow the {{rfc}} directly: Legobot won't look for it way down here. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:35, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Two another sources from politologist which placing LFI at the far-left:

• Pierre Vercauteren : https://www.rtbf.be/article/en-france-la-course-aux-legislatives-commence-des-elections-d-une-importance-rarement-connue-depuis-le-suffrage-universel-10981041
• Michel Hermans : https://www.lecho.be/economie-politique/europe/general/la-grande-union-des-gauches-francaises-prend-forme/10385481.html Lsandre (talk) 17:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

C'est un élément langage je vous renvoie pour preuve que c'est un élément langage sur la vidéos "les extrême" anatomie d'un trompe l'œil réthorique de Clément Viktorovitch également politologue.

Législatives 2022 : "les extrêmes", anatomie d’un trompe-l’œil rhétorique (francetvinfo.fr)

Cet argument est inapproprié, et même fallacieux. Et pour le démontrer, on est obligé de faire un peu d’histoire politique. Commençons par l’extrême gauche. C’est un terme précis. L’historien Serge Cosseron, auteur du Dictionnaire de l’extrême gauche, rappelle qu’il désigne "les organisation anticapitalistes révolutionnaires, qui se caractérisent par leur rejet des institutions". Typiquement : le Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste et Lutte Ouvrière, qui se sont présentés à l’élection présidentielle, tout en affirmant ne pas vouloir être élus.

un mouvement d’extrême gauche ? Réponse : non. Selon aucune définition. C’est un mouvement réformiste, qui souhaite le changement par les urnes. Quant à son programme, il est dans la droite ligne du programme commun défendu par François Mitterrand en 1981. Alors, c’est vrai qu’à l’époque, la droite prétendait qu’il se traduirait par l’arrivée des chars russes dans Paris. Mais avec le recul, plus personne ne le qualifierait d’extrémiste.

Une sources suisse SEZAME.org les classes uniquement comme gauche radical uniquement.

La version anglaise de Wikipédia, peut-être davantage neutre pour ce qui est de la politique française, encore que, positionne la France insoumise non pas dans "Far left" (extrême gauche) mais dans "Left wing" (gauche radicale), sur le même plan que Génération.s et le Parti communiste français. Dimit40 (talk) 13:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

"Parti communiste français." for the benefit of US reader: this person is trying to tell you that 'Communism' is not 'far left' but just 'left'. (but has no problem with classifying ~40% of the french electorate as 'extreme right'.

To give you an idea on that scale AOC is right of LFI Shmget (talk) 15:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)