Talk:La Cucaracha

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Untitled

having the virse with Marijuana que fumar. seems innaproprate. A better verse would be Una pata para andar. as it is the one more often sung, especially to children. Also, here is an example of a political version of 'la cucaracha'.

La dictadura, en Costa Rica,

Ya no puede medrar.

Por que le falta, por que no tiene,

Una vota para apoyar.

Una cosa, no me de risa,

Cuando no soy un camisa.

Ya se van los rebelditos,

Porque vienen los opresorcitos.

Poco después de, ustedes vienen,

Los americanos venir para ayudan.

Para la ayuda, llegar tarde,

Y muchas mas moró por que si el.

--1 black hand 17:25, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Horn

I'm pretty sure that la cucaracha is a very famous tune for a car horn. Can someone clarify this on my talk page user: swinger222

It was actually in a Simpsons episode, wasn't it? 70.17.9.57 02:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, where Homer designed a car for his half-brother Herb, which ended up ruining his business. I don't know how famous it is, but someone in my old neighborhood had one, as I frequently heard him honking it from my apartment. -- stubblyhead | ^T/_c 20:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It's been widely used as a car-horn tune in the UK for many years. But since 1986, it can no longer be used legally on a public highway. There are still many manufacturers making them, however, and they can be easily found via Goggle. But this fact is seen as "trivia" by some editors (see below)Martinevans123 (talk) 22:41, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

About the marihuana in the lyrics

Some people think this is a joke. However, this version of the lyrics is very well established, and I would say even standard in Mexico. It is included as part of the "Corrido de la muerte de Pancho Villa", written about 80 years ago, which also attributes authorship of La Cucaracha to Pancho Villa himself. You can find the whole corrido in many places on the web, such as http://ingeb.org/songs/panchovi.html . You can also find a long version of La Cucaracha at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/9466/corridos.html . Itub 00:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

That's cool, if it's the authentic version. Wikipedia is here to give unbiased information, not to be PC. The marijuana was the answer to a question on a musical quiz show here in Oz earlier this week, which is why I looked it up. We have an old song book for kids that substituted "un cigarro" in the Spanish lyrics (the English lyrics provided were not a translation, but made up for Australian kids), which these days is nearly as inappropriate as pot. --Kelly holden 12:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This is solely for anecdotal reasons, but as a child my (Mexican) grandmother sang me the song complete with the marijuana lyric. It's the version the Mexican-american kids at my school sang, too. It was no big thing. Just wanted to share. - Murcielago 05:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I remember as a kid learning lyrics that had something to do with chocolate, but I don't recall if it was used in place of marijuana. Anyone else? -- stubblyhead | ^T/_c 20:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In Argentina it's definitelly not marijuana. It's "las dos patitas de atrás" (comment at Clarín newspaper, Mexican Embassy in UK). Also common is the "Una pata para andar" version. I'm strongly against the marijuana version. Mariano(t/c) 10:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Itub, I left this message above regarding the wording of the lyrics, and provided some sources at least I consider more important than the normal amateur site. It went unanswered for more than two weeks before I decided to take action and change the las phrase. You jumped to revert my edits, leaving no reference of the "las dos patitas de atras" version nor any message at the talk page. What's more, you claim that to be the "real" version, providing no sources. I feel like reverting back to my version, but will let you explain your actions and source your position. Mariano(t/c) 08:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I already sourced it above. Search google, and you'll find that the majority of sites have the marijuana lyrics. It's understandable that a government site will want to use the censored version, but the government is not an authority about folk songs (as it would be for the national anthem). The link at the bottom of the article, http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010727.html , gives the marijuana lyrics and says that "sometimes the last line is replaced with a bowdlerization".

If you don't believe in "amateur" websites, look at books in print: the marijuana lyrics are in common use since the Mexican revolution and you can find them everywhere. Some examples include 500 Best-Loved Song Lyrics by Ronald Herder, Drug Wars: Political Economy of Narcotics by Curtis Marez, Intervention: The United States and the Mexican Revolution, 1913-1917 by John S. D. Eisenhower, Reefer Madness: The History of Marijuana in America by Larry Ratso Sloma, Popular Music in American History by William Reid, Spanish Loanwords in the English Language: A Tendency Towards Hegemony Reversal, by Félix Rodríguez González, Popular Musics of the Non-Western World: An Introductory Survey by Peter Manuel, and El corrido mexicano: Antología by Vicente T. Mendoza. Note that some of these examples are serious history books. You can find all of the books I mentioned via google's book search. Itub 15:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's more likely that the original was a harmless children's song (ending with "dos patitas de atrás") and that other humours or racy punchlines have evolved since. There are plenty of other examples of children's songs with rude alternate versions. My wife was brought up in Mexico and remembers the 'clean' version as the traditional song, but that the older boys at school (and some adults) would sing the marijuana version. Finally, the lyric makes more sense with the cockroach not being able to walk because he's missing his two rear feet. Think about it: why would a lack of marijuana prevent someone from being able to walk? Surely the opposite would be the case? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by M0thr4 (talk • contribs) 09:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Fact: Most Mexicans fighting in the Mexican revolution were good ol' bud smokers (including) Pancho Villa himself. Now, from other places I read, the original song is about a Mexican revolutionary that refused to march without Marijuana, or something like that... JokersAce0 07:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)JokersAce0

All the documented evidence about General Villa is that he mostly got off on the muchachas, and rarely if ever drank or puffed. The original song apparently dates from the reconquista of Spain from the Moors, but as an oral tradition, documenting the evolution of the song is impossible. Tubezone 07:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I remember as a kid having a book (actually, from Mexico's Public Education Secretary, SEP) which contained a really very long version of this corrido. Do you think something should be said about? Does anybody know anything about this? I can remember my mother once even stated: "La Cucaracha, is a song which has no end" (that is, at least very long as to remember the whole lyrics or to learn them easily).

NO NO NO Its about MARIJUANA. Wikipedia not to be censored for children or other sensitive types like those of you who want to not mention it. Men at war sing about naughty stuff and this is the original version as emerged in the Mexican Revolution. Do not censor history because you don't like it. Narc! --Jon in California 2 Aug 2007

I had a college roommate who lived for a number of years in Mexico, and her story about the song had to do with Pancho Villa: that his car broke down during an escape, and he (or an associate) wrote the verse about that--his car being "la cucaracha," and that it wouldn't go because it had no "marijuana" (gas). This story is referenced in the "Straight Dope" article, but I was wondering if anyone else had heard it, or how widespread this story was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.228.207.85 (talk) 23:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Isn't the joke that "la cucaracha" is a roach, like the butt of a spliff? The roach has no marijuana in it, or at least not enough to get you high. Hence, it won't "walk." It's a joke about running out of weed. Come on guys...72.78.3.180 (talk) 13:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Eight zillion people are saying this is connected to marijuana. So yeah. Where the hell did this connection from if its "fictional"? I mean, it didn't materialize out of thin air. Come on. --Ragemanchoo (talk) 04:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Marijuana, Marihuana, and variants are American in origin and are a result of the racial bias of early Cannabis prohibition. The earliest references I can find date to 1918. If this song is about the MexicanRevolution (1911) then that verse is an anachronism and must have been added later. --Ganjablue (talk) 17:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Either way, something must be done to repair the wording. As it stands currently, the article says that the marijuana version "is widely believed [to be] the original version," while the patitas version is "the most traditional Spanish version." How could the most traditional version be different from the original? This would be like saying My Country, 'Tis of Thee is more traditional than God Save the Queen. Perhaps it could be changed so that the patitas version is "the most well-known Spanish version," or "the most commonly-sung Spanish version," or something like that. Sources are clearly required here as well. -Thibbs (talk) 21:24, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The recording of "La Cucaracha" by Paz Flores y Francisco Montalvo, which was released in 1934, includes the marihuana verse. It also contains mention of Pancho Villa. My Spanish is not good enough to translate it, but it is online at Youtube -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN0vvPyrrP8 --- for anyone who s interested.

In my family of left-wing beatnik Jewish folk-singing communists of the 1930s-40s, the marihuana reference was what made the song popular. I was told by my parents that the use of the word "roach" for a smoked-out marihuana cigarette was derived from the song.

By the way, Jules Feiffer, ghost writing the November 19th, 1950 episode of the The Spirit comic book newspaper insert for Will Eisner, based the entire storyline around the song, presumably as a bit of a joke on his strait-laced boss and audience. -- catherine yronwode not logged in 70.36.137.47 (talk) 06:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your help organizing the list. I'm not really crazy about lists like these in the first place since they tend to really bulk up the article with very little substantive value, but as long as there is a list it should be organized somehow and chronologically makes good sense to me. The tidbit about the origin of the slang term "roach" would also be an excellent addition here if we could find reliable sources that backed up the claim. -Thibbs (talk) 12:14, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Verses or chorus

Wouldn't the various lyrics cited that begin with "La cucaracha, la cucaracha" be choruses or refrains rather than verses? I think they're generally repeated in between verses, and are sung to different music from the verses. 140.147.160.78 15:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

Marihuana / mariguana / marijuana

The correct terms in spanish are marihuana or mariguana (both). Marijuana is incorrect. The Real Academia Española dictionary can be consulted:

• Marihuana.
• Mariguana (redirects to marihuana).
• Marijuana, error (doesn't exist).

--RoberPL (talk) 19:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

And this is an English site. Its the 'j'. Or just say 'weed'. --Ragemanchoo (talk) 04:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The what?

"the great Mexican cockroach scare of 1827"

Say what? Google turns up nothing except this page.75.62.109.96 (talk) 13:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I suspect it's vandalism, but I can't quite tell. It doesn't seem to make sense. It certainly needs a citation tag.72.78.3.180 (talk) 13:04, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Empress Carlota?

I've heard the song has a connection to Empress Carlota and her drug use (marijuana). Anybody else heard this? --Ragemanchoo (talk) 04:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

A Cucaracha is a Jalopy

Growing up in South Texas, they told me that a "Cucaracha" was slang for a Model T Ford. This fellow has the same recollection, but for him it was a Model A. [1] Checking the Yahoo English/Spanish Dictionary: "(coche) jalopy, rattletrap" [2] The Ford Model T was first produced in 1908 and was common in Mexico during the Revolution. (The Model A did not come out until 1927.) Pancho Villa was assassinated in 1923 in his Model T. I believe this was the original meaning of the word, but in current use, it refers to an old jalopy of any model: I just called my brother's car a "cucaracha" last week. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forrest Johnson (talk • contribs) 19:40, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Rework

I just overhauled the article and provided proper sourcing for it. We still need a source that shows that the patitas version is "the most traditional Spanish version." I'm not sure that it's in its best form right now. the borderless table approach seemed best suited to what I was interested in achieving with the translations, however it leaves some portions of the article looking a but "versey." We should work on adding text between representative verses. Also, if anyone can find a Carrancist Revolutionary verse, i think that would be a valuable addition to the article. The source where I got the Zapatist, Villist, and Huertist verses was clearly anti-Carranza... -Thibbs (talk) 01:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Another quick note, I found a lot of useful information here but by this point I was sick of editing. This like it could be a valuable resource for the future of this article. -Thibbs (talk) 01:54, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

La Cucaracha Folk Dance

Is La Cucaracha a Folk Dance? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.191.254.196 (talk) 12:56, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 19:24, 15 October 2012 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

La Cucaracha → La cucaracha – Decap Spanish song title, see e.g. Spanish Wikipedia. --The Evil IP address (talk) 14:03, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• There were recent similar move discussions at Talk:Con Los Años Que Me Quedan and Talk:Como Ama una Mujer. As I noted, using native capitalization in non-English titles is supported by WikiProject Classical music guidelines (WP:CAPM: "For titles in their original foreign language, the style used is 'sentence capitalization'. That is, the title is capitalized as it would be in a sentence in that language.") This is congruent with WP:CAPS: Capitalization of expressions borrowed from other languages. However, the song title of this song is usually capitalized in English sources (e.g., see Google Books results). —  AjaxSmack  15:34, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose WP:UE per AjaxSmack's results, English language usage is established with capitalization. -- 70.50.149.56 (talk) 23:42, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's a proper noun, per WP:CAPS. Kauffner (talk) 02:36, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Car horns

The use of this tune as a car horn is extremely widespread. I would imagine there are thousands of people, all over the world, but particularly in the US and UK, who have not the slightest idea that it originates from this Spanish folk corrido. I suspect many of those folk would never have heard the tune at all were it not for its use, or misuse, in that popular medium. To blindly dismiss the connection as "WP:TRIVIA" denies any the opportunity of the realisation of the connection by means of this article. If the sources provided are inadequate, the answer is to find better ones. It's hard to believe that such a basic fact is not allowed a place in this article. As I mentioned in the edit summary, a Google search for "La Cucaracha"+"car horn" gives over 7000 hits. "La Cucaracha"+"motor"+"horn" gives 28,000 hits. I'd suggest editors take a look at Dixie (song) and see what has been included there. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:55, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Look I don't have a huge problem with "In popular culture sections" as long as they are reliably sourced. The example you give of Dixie (song) isn't ideal because it is clearly lacking an "In popular culture" section. That's probably a big part of why it's a featured article. I see that it mentions car horn versions of the song Dixie, but that fact is presented in context with the song itself rather than as a random factoid. Furthermore the two sources for that fact come from 1) the Smithsonian Institution, and 2) Middlebury College whereas the three sources used for the car horns playing La Cucaracha had come from 1) hornblasters.com, 2) Random YouTuber Anton Sander, and 3) Random YouTuber kondziu93a. Anyway I don't really care if you restore the section with RSes, but others might well disagree with having the section at all. -Thibbs (talk) 22:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

"Look", I didn't claim it was ideal, it's just an example of a popular tune used in a similar way. The use of La Cucaracha as a can-horn tune isn't a factoid, it's a fact. If you think it needs better sources you should mark it as such. Not dismiss it out of hand as "trivia". We also have "The tune can be heard on customized car horns" with two references over at Shave and a Haircut. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:16, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

No you misunderstand. It is trivia per WP:TRIVIA, not per your personal definition. When you have isolated sentences under an "In popular culture" section then that is textbook trivia. It gives the reader zero sense of the significance in relation to the topic. This is an article about a Spanish folk corrido, not about modifying car horns. If the car horn intersection is remotely relevant then you should be able to locate a reliable source that explains the relevance in relation to the song rather than brief mentions that the practice does exist. -Thibbs (talk) 04:35, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

... and then take a look at Greensleeves and see what it has to do with Ice cream vans. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:04, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Again, it uses actual RSes: The Guardian and The Mirror. We need proper sources at a minimum. -Thibbs (talk) 22:13, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

This source, which mentions the tune by name, says "Consequently, car horns that play a tune such as the popular La Cucaracha (Spanish for cockroach) are illegal." [3]. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC) "Fitting of Horns and Alarms Regulation 37 Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986: states that every motor vehicle with a maximum speed of more than 20 m.p.h. shall be fitted with an audible warning instrument (horn) except an agricultural motor vehicle unless it is being driven at more than 20 m.p.h. The audible warning instrument fitted to a wheeled vehicle first used on or after 1/8/73 should be continuous and uniform and not strident."

Here's The Guardian saying "The word cockroach comes from the Spanish "cucaracha" (remember those car horns that used to play La Cucaracha?).": [4]. They are now, of course, illegal on UK roads. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:20, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Those are much better than the previous sources. As far as I'm concerned you can restore the "In popular culture" subsection and the carhorn claim with these new sources but other editors still might object since it's so clearly trivia. -Thibbs (talk) 22:29, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it's trivia in the slightest. It's a tune. It's used (or was until 1986) as a car-horn tune. Those are just facts. In my own personal experience, the only three popular car horn tunes in the UK have been La Cucaracha, Dixie and Shave and a Haircut. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:37, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes I agree those are facts. But I maintain that as presented they were trivial facts. Your own personal experience is interesting, but unless you are a reliable source and unless you have published your experiences with these humorous car horns then it's irrelevant to the issue. Like I said, I don't have a strong objection provided that you use actual sources instead of clips of random YouTubers showing off their cars, but let's not paint this as something integral to an understanding of the song. You'll have to furnish much stronger sources if you want to convince me of that. -Thibbs (talk) 04:35, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not trying to convince anyone that knowledge of the use of the tune in a car horn is "integral to an understanding of the song". I'm sure that's not what any "In popular culture" section aims to to. It's more a case of the wider influence a subject has had in everyday life. I'd also disagree that facts can "become trivial" just because of the way they are presented. They may be presented in an article in a more or less integrated way. They may be supported by more or less reliable sources. But they are still undeniable facts. If I were a non-expert reader, coming to this encyclopedia, trying to confirm he name of a tune I had just heard on a car horn, it'd get no help, unless I happened to read this Talk Page. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:52, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

And again, I'm not interested in debating whether the item is a factoid or whether it registers as a full-on fact. Its relevance to the topic of this article is very very small. Based on the way it was presented it is highly likely to be trivia in keeping with the definition of trivia as set out in WP:TRIVIA (isolated sentences under an "In popular culture" section). That's all that matters. Your scenario of a reader coming to the La Cucaracha page in order to discover the name of the tune playing on someone's car horn is exceedingly unlikely. Much more likely would be that he would start at car horn which is perhaps a better home for this factoid (perhaps at Vehicle horn#Horns used as musical instruments). If you're determined to add it here then like I said earlier, my only real concern is that you must use RSes, but I think it's only fair to warn you that others may seek removal under the claim that it is trivia. And then adamantly explaining that it is a real fact won't do any good since all non-vandalism trivia represents real facts. To disprove that it is trivia you will need to locate a reliable source that explains the relevance of the fact in relation to the song. -Thibbs (talk) 11:34, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not determined to do anything. Your suggestion about Car horn seems very senisble, so I will atempt an edit over there. I think we just have different personal opinins about the significance of the use of this tune in a widely available motoring consumer product. Meanwhile the suggestions of other editors are very welcome. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:56, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I've also got doubts about there being no mention of Looney Tunes, Mexican Boarders etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:19, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

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Refrain section mistranslation?

Under this section it says "las dospatitas de atrás" means it lost one of its six legs, but shouldn't it be, "Las dos patitas de atrás", which means two hind legs? I believe this is the case, which also means the part that says "The cockroach's uneven, five-legged gait is imitated by the song's original 5/4 meter" isn't true and should also be removed. It has no citation anyway. Bnmguy (talk) 20:59, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Every recording and sheet music I can find of it is clearly in 4/4 (or 2/2), I have no idea what the "standard 6/4" rhythm is supposed to be.

 La Cu - ca - ra - cha, la cu - ca - ra - cha,
 +  4    +    1+2  + 3  +  4    +    1+2  3+4+
   ya no pue - de cam - i - nar
 1 +2 +  3     +  4     +   1+2+3

100.17.1.53 (talk) 03:22, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, I stand corrected. The earliest version mentioned in the article (I found it at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe3PnzuGiA0) is clearly in triple meter, though I'd call it 3/4, not 6/4 (you could conceivably double the note values to convert between but 3/4 is a lot simpler and more common). 100.17.1.53 (talk) 19:49, 21 March 2019 (UTC)