Talk:LGBT themes in comics/Archive 1

Question

1) Where on this list do transgender characters who are not superheroes go? Otto4711 (talk) 05:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

You should probably just rename the headline. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I renamed it anyway (to characters), but no-one has added anything other the one superhero i put in there when creating the section. Maybe it was a rhetorical question?Yobmod (talk) 09:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Split the list?

I'd like to float the idea of splitting the list into its own article. The article is getting fairly long and the list certainly has legs enough to stand on its own. In fact it has the potential to become a featured list. Otto4711 (talk) 22:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with the split. I wrote all the prose part, but the list just looks too daunting to FLify: would have to find references for all - even primary sources would be a big task. But if ou need help with formatting, i've just done 2 FLC lists. It is definitly long enough to be in a seperate article, with the random sex-change stories list removed (as they aren't LGBT imo). If you split it, i'll update the LGBT navobx :-) Yobmod (talk) 08:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the split is necessary, but I wholeheartedly agree that the random sex-change stories lsit should be removed. They're not LGBT. MMMMMMMM (talk) 07:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Split or not, I think it would be cleaner to reformat the list in the same way as List of LGBT characters in modern written fiction, in a table and mixing gay-lesbian-bi etc. together; it seems as though people would be looking at characters by name first rather than orientation, though skimming the list looking for lesbians or whatever would be simple in table format. If there are no major objections to this idea, I will probably be bold and make that conversion within the next few weeks. We should probably also beef up the references in the list a bit more before it is split out to make sure we have no drastic notability issues or challenges, but since the list isn't about real people and therefore not particularly controversial, I think a number of unreferenced items can be listed (with fact tags) until proper sources can be found. — TAnthony^Talk 21:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I also disagree about some of the "sex change" characters/storylines; Tristan from Camelot 3000 and Shvaughn Erin, for example, are very much LGBT (some of these characters may already appear in the other lists). But Superman being changed to girl for an issue is obviously not notable in this context. — TAnthony^Talk 21:51, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, I would definitely want to format the list. Tables can be made sortable so whether the various current sub-lists get integrated isn't a barrier. So long as there's a column in the table for orientation and it's sortable those only interested in one sexuality or another can find what they're looking for. Re the random sex-change stories, I don't see any real reason to delete them but stay or go they don't have any particular bearing on whether we split the list off. Otto4711 (talk) 01:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Sortable columns for: name--comic (most associated with)--company--orientation--notes--ref (at least primary source with coming out story)? They would be the categories i would be interested in sorting by.

Just split the list of actual LGBT characters, and the sex change stories can be cleaned up here separately (i think a prose section pointing out how common they are, with a couple of examples would be enough.) I noticed that the trans characters have been moved to their poper places already.Yobmod (talk) 08:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The "comic most associated with" column might be problematic especially for minor characters and/or villains who can move from title to title. Trying to figure out what title they're most associated with might amount to original research. Perhaps a "first appearance" column, including issue number and cover date (or a separate sortable cover date column so they can be arranged chronologically) would be better? I don't think we need a separate references column since first appearance and issue that the character was established as LGBT will in many cases require separate references. Otto4711 (talk) 23:51, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Might be better, i was just thinking that many characters first appear as minor characters before getting their own series. S the characters from the GLAAD award winning Young Avengers are obviously most assiciated with that comic, but their first appearance is in who knows what not particularly interesting to LGBT reader comic. But wither way causes problems, and first appearacne is more easily sourced. I usually use a ref column just to keep things neater (so would have put the ref for first appearance / sexuality together in one column, but keeping them next to the info would be easier to keep track of. It is possible to make the first appearance column sortable by comic then date, or by date then comic, but seperate date column (for coming out would be better imo, with the amount of retconing that happens). I'm convinced! :-)Yobmod (talk) 10:52, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Example, feelfree to improve here:

Name	First appearance	Year	Identified as LGBT: Issue	Year	Company	Note	Orientation
Batman	Detective Comics #27	1939	Batman #200	1993	DC comics	Confirmed bachelor in relationship with Nightwing	Gay
Wonder woman	All Star Comics #8	1941	The Brave and the Bold #28	1960	DC comics	Lives in open lesbian relationsip with Wonder Girl	Lesbian

Oh, and the split template says split and make an disambig? I think it would be better to split and make the list a sub article of this - if linked well enough , a disambig should not be needed.Yobmod (talk) 11:53, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The template text is automatic. We'd want something like a "see also" note rather than a dab page. The only suggestion I would make regarding the table would be regarding the headings "Outing Issue" and "Outing Year". Outing is generally involuntary whereas coming out is not and AFAIK the vast majority of these characters came out on their own and weren't outed. Perhaps something like "Identified as LGBT" and "Year" would be better. Also, transgender is not a sexual orientation (but I can't think of a good term to use for the column header). Otto4711 (talk) 15:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I changed the headers for coming out times. I can think of some who were outed rather than coming out, so i went with your suggestion. Cannot "orientation" also refer to gender orientation, as well as sexual? If not, can use "LGBT status" or something equally horrible sounding. I don't think a better general term exists.Yobmod (talk) 17:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I think "orientation" is probably the best choice despite its imprecision. I think we're ready to split this. How do you want to do it, in article space at List of LGBT characters in comics or on a sub-page of your or my user page? Otto4711 (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I made the page in mainspace directly. Its not a good list yet, but is good enough to survive, and attract contributors. Not started the formatting though - mostly cos i only have x-men comics, which is only 3 characters info. 09:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

circles, carpe diem

Are those notable? we don't have any articles about them. --Cameron Scott (talk) 10:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Buffy

I've removed this twice. Having had one relationship with a woman does not make someone Bi. Most gay people i know slept with the opposite gender as teenagers - they are not all Bi. Both the character has said she is straight in universe, and the writer siad that this does not make her gay - it was an experimentation. With out of universe sources saying she is not LGBT, we need something more than fans opinions on how a woman experimenting as a teenager is bisexual, in spite of the woman explicitly stating she is not.Yobmod (talk) 13:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

If a charcter is to be included here if they had any gay experience, in spite of self-identifying as straight, then most (if not all) of the self-identified lesbians should be moved to bisexual also (eg, Willow, who had a long term sexual relationship with with Oz, and kissed Xander muliple times).Yobmod (talk) 13:17, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions

This got deleted for some reason. Reposting.

I'm a crap wikipedia editor, so I'm requesting that these additions be made by someone else, so as to prevent the article from looking terrible due to my ham-fisted interference.

John Constantine - Known to have participated in several sexual relationships with members of the same sex, including but not limited to filming a sex tape with the Fermin brothers, becoming a member of a pansexual BDSM club, and seducing billionaire Stanley Manor. Desire (DC Comics) - Could appear as either a man or a woman, and did so regularly. Warren Kenneth Worthington III AKA Angel - Homosexuality made implicit in Neil Gaiman's alternative universe miniseries, Marvel_1602, when he falls in love with Jean Grey while Jean is disguised as a man. Hope these are helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.150.132 (talk) 21:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up, I added these to List of LGBT characters in comics earlier today off your previous posting.— TAnthony^Talk 21:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)