Talk:LGBT rights in Poland

Bias?

Generally speaking, a very informative article but there are clearly biased moments with a colonial taste. This is just one example: "Nevertheless, in the 21st century, attitudes have become more accepting, in line with worldwide trends. In 2011, Anna Grodzka became the third transgender member of parliament in the world (...)" There is no trend if that was indeed the 3rd case in the whole world. If anything - Poland here should be considered a trendSETTER in that respect. If there is truly a trend to which the author refers (although it is not clear to what kind of trend the author refers) - the example provided is anything but illustrative. 91.231.45.1 (talk) 10:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

"Worldwide trends" are demonstrably "more accepting" of the LGBT+ minorities in Western democracies, with same-sex marriage legal in 26 countries. Many more offer 'skim milk marriage' (cf Ruth Ginsburg) in the form of civil partnerships, and anti-discrimination laws that protect the LGBT+ citizens' right to employment, housing, education, healthcare and public accommodation. In that light, Anna Grodzka is an appropriate example of this trend, albeit in Poland where, as in Russia, there is rising animus against LGBT+ citizens.Chrisdevelop (talk) 20:07, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Before 1968 the worldwide trend was to ban homosexual relations. Poland didnt follow the trend. Poland doesnt need to follow the trend, what is important that Poland let people be themselves. --Cautious (talk) 20:50, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Legality of homosexuality in Poland.

Information about legal homosexuality in former Poland is at least partially false. Polish legal acts from the times of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth didn't mention homosexuality, but the Church law was in force and homosexuality was prohibited. There are sources, but they are in Polish language. https://fakenews.pl/spoleczenstwo/polska-nigdy-nie-karala-za-homoseksualizm-sprawdzamy/ https://tytus.edu.pl/2018/10/08/mezolubnicy-i-samcoloznicy-co-wiemy-o-homoseksualistach-w-dawnej-polsce/ https://ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/2020/07/27/polscy-homoseksualisci-spaleni-na-stosie/ Poland is often called państwo bez stosów (literally: a country without stakes), but some homosexuals in Poland were burnt in the stake. After the Commonwealth period, partitoners' laws prohibited homosexuality and independent Poland adopted this laws in 1918 and kept it until 1932. Therefore, homosexuality in Poland wasn't always legal. Ukamhu (talk) 16:03, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

We much prefer scholarly sources to random online ones. Can you find some peer-reviewed published material that can support this (Google Scholar is a good place to start)? Also, if the source isn't in English, could you attach a short translation to English of the relevant parts? Thanks. François Robere (talk) 16:55, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Translation of an information about Sieradz Trial of 1633: The most famous case of a homosexual couple sentenced to death in Poland is the Sieradz Trial of 1633. At that time, the bakery master, Marcin Gołek, had secret relations with his student, Wojciech from Sromotka - in the summer outside the city walls, and in the winter in secluded urban nooks and crannies. According to Wojciech's testimony, his master enslaved him under the influence of alcohol and then paid for his silence. It all came to light when the baker revealed intimate secrets to the hostess. Young Wojciech then began to accuse Marcin in court, standing in the position of the prosecutor... But he quickly became an accomplice himself. Marcin, testifying in front of the judge, described how the student had persuaded him to engage in abusive relations. Wojciech was supposed to mate with animals on the pasture earlier. The latter, of course, denied everything, stubbornly claiming that the master was forcing him into intercourse. There was no conclusion, so the court sentenced both men as complicit in sodomy [obsolete word for homosexuality - my information]. They were burned at the stake on 9th of November, 1633. I searched for sources and there are sources, but I don't have access to them. Most sources of articles, which I presented, don't have PDF version and even if I would want to buy them, they aren't available in bookshops.

Ukamhu (talk) 18:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

This seems like a good source, but I can't find a copy: Nastulczyk, T. and Oczko, P. (2012) Homoseksualność staropolska: przyczynek do badań. Kraków : Collegium Columbinum (Biblioteka Tradycji. Seria Druga, ISSN 1895-6076; nr 107), pp. 541, [1], XXVIII. François Robere (talk) 19:07, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Equal rights

The previous version suggested that LGBT people are discriminated against, which is not proved by any fact. Poland in general respects equality of all people, the problem is focusing on specific rights, which shall protect LGBT postulates. Let us start discussion on the first paragraph. The current version: "esbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people in Poland face legal challenges not faced by non-LGBT residents. " is not summarising the content of the article. --Cautious (talk) 20:30, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

All changes to Wikipedia articles must be supported by reliable sources. It is simply untrue that LGBT people enjoy equal rights in Poland, as you can tell by reading the sources already cited in the article. (t · c) buidhe 20:39, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Nope. The current summary doesnt correspond to the content of the article. The whole article shows that LGBT people have equal rights in Poland, but they lack the specific rights focues on LGBT issues. However, summary contradicts the article. Please explain, what exactly doest it mean that LGBT people face legal challanges??? Do they need to go to court to get approval for gay relationship???Cautious (talk) 20:45, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Do straight people need to file lawsuits in order to obtain Polish citizenship for their child?[1] Do they need to go to the European Court of Human Rights to obtain legal recognition of their relationship, lack of which leads to various unfavorable situations and obstacles for same-sex couples not encountered by opposite-sex couples?[2] ILGA-Europe notes that "it has become a practice of local authorities to attempt to ban equality marches", so we can add that straight people do not need to defend their freedom of assembly in court.[3] (t · c) buidhe 21:09, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

The first point: children registration form is the same for all, there is no discrimination there. Everyone, who presents wrong form, where numbers of mothers or fathers is higher than 1, will be refused. The second point: every couple in Poland is protected according to Polish constitution as union of a woman and a man. If someone has other kind of couple, it is his private affair. Do you think Poland shall change its constitution to accommodate claims of Mr & Mr Smiths? If Mr & Mr fulfill the conditions given by Polish law, their couple will be recognized. If not it is their private problem. No discrimination here. Third point: any proof that all people, who want to take part in "equality march" are LGBT? Any proof that no straight person can have its demo banned? All your points gone. --Cautious (talk) 19:05, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

You're free to believe there's no discrimination against LGBT in poland if you want. But the fact remains undeniable that LGBT people may encounter "legal challenges not faced by non-LGBT residents". The above situations would not have happened if the people involved were straight. (t · c) buidhe 19:19, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Point 1: legal challenge may be encountered by LGBT and non-LGBT people alike. Point 2: legal challenge may be encountered by LGBT and non-LGBT people alike. Point 3: legal challenge may be encountered by LGBT and non-LGBT people alike. You don't have a point. --Cautious (talk) 20:35, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

You are forcing your POV. Your POV statement is that LGBT people face challenges, but non-LGBT not and I can have an example that denies your point on all accounts. However, you are not interested in honest debate. You have removed my source that denies your point #1--Cautious (talk) 20:54, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

This is WP:NOTAFORUM. If you want to make a contribution and have the sources to back it, then you're more than welcome. Otherwise, take it elsewhere. François Robere (talk) 19:40, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

You are welcome. You might not be aware, but all Polish people have legal chellanges and they face problems in public offices. I gave a source about parents that cannot register their, because of some bogey reason. I contributed accordingly, because LGBT people DO NOT FACE CHALLANGES THAT ARE UNKNOWN TO NON-LGBT people. --Cautious (talk) 20:43, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Again, without a source that specifically discusses LGBT rights in Poland the article can't be changed. See WP:Original research. The article's first sentence is similar to other articles on LGBT rights in countries that aren't considered to fully protect them, such as LGBT rights in Romania or LGBT rights in Russia. (t · c) buidhe 21:02, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I do not care that you like the summary sentence to be the same in many countries if it goes against content of the article. This makes completly no sense to anybody. I have at hand examples that all people face challanges in Poland. Please stop forcing your POV, because it goes against wiki guidelines and start discussion in good faith. --Cautious (talk) 21:15, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree with buidhe and François Robere. This article looks to use reliable sources to indicate where the rights of LGBT Polish residents are unequally protected. I woudn't recommend continuing this line of discussion unless you find other reliable sources that contradict that point or have good reason to believe some of the existing sources are unreliable Firefangledfeathers (talk) 21:17, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Here you have a source

It describes a non-LGBT parents that are not able to register a child, because of the formal reasons. This denies point 1 of the above example. I meant that this formulation is clearly wrong, as every person in Poland can face legal challenge. The fact that you are non-LGBT doesn't make you challenge free.--Cautious (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

@Cautious: I advise you to drop the WP:STICK. Admins do not take homophobia lightly. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:35, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

tgeorgescu this is your baseless claim, you tried to offend me for alleged homophobie and put no merit point. --Cautious (talk) 22:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

The current formulation is wrong and is not supported by sources. --Cautious (talk) 22:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

All people have legal challenges in Poland sounds too much like And you are lynching Negroes. Why? Both are deflections from recognizing the reality. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:17, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, do you understand English? It is claimed that one group face challenges while the other not. I just proved the claim is false. Any conclusions?--Cautious (talk) 07:37, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

a single case is not the same as structural discrimination—blindlynx (talk) 00:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, but people with the documents that do not fit into agreed templates face in Poland systematic discrimation. By the way, there is no claim of systematic discrimination in the whole article. And you don't have any source that claims that. 3:0 --Cautious (talk) 07:37, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

That is like the Confederates would have replied to Abraham Lincoln: No, no, no, there are no slaves. No, no, no, there is no slavery. tgeorgescu (talk) 10:31, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Nope, it is not. Any proof? --Cautious (talk) 12:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

There are tonnes of sources in the article. A few random ones from the last year are: [4], [5], [6]. Please stop POV pushing—blindlynx (talk) 14:01, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Source changed

"which was made in accordance with Poland's anti-discrimination laws," - WP:RSOPINION that was removed from the source.
Do we keep such opinion based on archival version of the source, or should we rather remove it?
I'm not very sure, but it doesn't seem right to keep removed content on basis of verifiability.
I couldn't find any guideline (If anyone has link to one, I would be thankful) that would inform what should we do if web source does remove part we cite. --Wiedzosław (talk) 11:34, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

WP:Verifiability check please

We currently say: Both male and female same-sex sexual activity were decriminalized in 1932, when the country introduced an equal age of consent for homosexuals and heterosexuals, which was set at 15.[3][4]

But it's a common understanding for those particularly interested in this subject that the Polish state had never got round to laws on same-sex sexual activity in the first place, so it couldn't have decriminalized something that wasn't criminal. The LGBT activist and subject specialist Robert Biedron puts it more precisely: "Since 1932, Polish law had not contained any penalties for homosexual relations" which is not the same as decriminalization per se. Prior to that legislation there was nothing in the law that said it was either legal or illegal, as far as I had understood. Out Polish gays such as Witold Gombrowicz and Karol Szymanowski were never arrested before 1932 and had high-profile careers. So for us to say this was the year of "decriminalization," please can we see any verifiable proof that it was criminal in the first place, in case anyone has it to hand? I have looked, and can't find any. - Chumchum7 (talk) 07:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your concern is since this matter has been brought up many times before and the wording follows the cited source. (t · c) buidhe 15:19, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

LGBTQ rights website Equaldex (a wiki, not a reliable source) cites a queer studies paper reviewed by Dr. Jacek Kochanowski[7] supported by the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation and published by the Campaign Against Homophobia[8] to state that from Polish independence in 1918, homosexuality was no longer illegal. The source shows it had been illegal under the prior foreign-power occupation, and from 1918 instead became "ambiguous": same sex activity was not legislated against, despite being considered taboo. The paper is consistent with the wording of LGBTQ rights activist Robert Biedron above, writing at Auschwitz.org. Wikipedia has a fundamental principle of WP:NPOV, one of the Five Pillars, which requires accommodation of the range of reliable sources. Greater clarity and context is required in this article. The event of decriminalization in 1932 logically tells the reader it was criminal beforehand; it would be thorough to explain it was not legislated against beforehand (1918-1932), and criminal until 1918. In order to build an accurate encyclopaedia. -Chumchum7 (talk) 12:37, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

That’s not accurate however because it continued to be criminalized until 1932 according to the criminal codes that were in effect. Not to mention the Szulc source being an actual scholarly book published by Springer is probably better than the ones you have found. Whether the laws were enforced is a different question but many of the countries with current anti-homosexual laws don't enforce them either. (t · c) buidhe 16:54, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Various sources agree:

• "Poland had decriminalized them in 1932 with the introduction of a new penal code"
• "the decriminalisation of homosexual acts in the Polish Criminal Code of 1932"
• "Compared with other European countries, Polish law has been relatively progressive and homosexuality was decriminalised as early as 1932."

Interestingly, I also found a more pessimistic perspective on the reform:

• "The reform of the Criminal Code was completed in September 1932 after numerous debates which also concerned the penalization of ‘homosexuality’. Although it is commonly believed that the new ‘liberal’ Code did not penalize ‘homosexuality’, the legal situation was complex. As the lawyer Monika Płatek observes: ‘The Criminal Code of 1932 waived the criminal liability for sexual intercourse between same-sex adults with consent (…), yet penalization remained. Article 207 of the 1932 Criminal Code and its interpretation allowed (…) for sentencing and labelling homosexual people as criminals. That deepened the social discrimination and legal (…) pathologization of homosexual relations’. Płatek explains that article 207, penalizing same-sex prostitution and applied to both male and female encounters, was interpreted in such a way that it de facto prevented same-sex couples from creating a lasting relationship or even living together, as ‘even an invitation to the theatre or a kiss could have been recognized [by the court] as material benefits. Free lodging, board or clothing were definitely classified as material benefits’."

(t · c) buidhe 17:14, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

References

• Your assertion, "That’s not accurate however because it continued to be criminalized until 1932 according to the criminal codes that were in effect" is precisely what I have requested a citation for with my "please can we see any verifiable proof that it was criminal in the first place, in case anyone has it to hand?" So do you have a citation for that continued criminalization from 1918?
• You said: "I'm not sure what your concern is since this matter has been brought up many times before..." Please clarify, because you appear to be assuming here that I knew this matter has been brought up many times before and yet raised it again, which is not the case: As a matter of fact I tried in good faith to open the archive of this Talk page and cannot see how to do so. So if you can show us what has been already been brought up before, please do so now.
• WP:NPOV isn't about one source cancelling out the others and that is not what I have proposed here. I have not disputed the use of reliable sources used so far. I have called for accommodation of the range of reliable sources, not conflict between them, per the NPOV policy. -Chumchum7 (talk) 20:02, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
• A recent paper at Cambridge University Press has material on that "ambiguous" situation prior to 1932: "On 30 May 1923, members of the Codification Commission, a body created to construct a new Polish legal system, voted to exclude the crime of ‘fornication against nature’ (nierząd przeciwko naturze) from the future penal code. In practice, it meant that Poland was on its way to becoming the second European country in the twentieth century (after the Soviet Union) to decriminalise homosexual acts. The members of the commission were almost unanimous – six against one voted for the decriminalisation. In the only dissenting opinion, Witold Prądzyński argued that the law should respect ‘the opinion prevalent in society’, which ‘will demand the inclusion of pederasty and sodomy into the Penal Code’. Aleksander Mogilnicki succinctly rejected this view. He emphasised that the commission ‘cannot change its fundamental opinions (zasadnicze poglądy) for fear of political factors’. He insisted that there was ‘no place in the Criminal Code for these kinds of offenders’" The paper includes the case of an out and unprosecuted lesbian physician in Warsaw, Zofia Sadowska, about whom a contemporary source commented could in theory face prosecution in some parts of the country and not others because of the remnant Austrian laws which could, de jure, have caused her trouble. [9] -Chumchum7 (talk) 20:17, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

  Sure, they were talking about decriminalizing it. So was Germany and Czechoslovakia around the same time. However it remained on the books as a crime in all three countries until a later date. Otherwise you would not be able to find many sources as I've posted here stating the date of decriminalization was 1932. I think it makes sense to follow what most reliable sources on the matter are telling us, and I've yet to see any RS that substantially disagree with this assessment. If there are sources about the degree to which the laws were enforced, that can also be included in the article. (t · c) buidhe 21:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

• This article needs to include that process formally began in "1923, the very year when the decriminalisation of homosexual acts had been decided," and "On 30 May 1923, members of the Codification Commission, a body created to construct a new Polish legal system, voted to exclude the crime of ‘fornication against nature’ (nierząd przeciwko naturze) from the future penal code." That is not a just case of talking about it.
• It's an omission from the article that 1932 didn't bring equal rights, it rather moved the matter of homosexuality from crime to psychiatry, as the source above states. Clearly, a taboo remained and it's an omission not to put that context around the decriminalization, too.
• Enforcement is one thing, the legal status of lesbian sex is another. As the CUP paper states: "apart from the lands of former Galicia, sex between women had not been criminalised in Poland. When discussing the matter in 1923, the lawyers still thought mostly about male homosexuality."
• Dr. Zofia Sadowska's 1924 prosecution of a tabloid newspaper for libel is an omission from this article. As her article shows, in the trial she denied the alleged breach of medical ethics, and also in the trial plainly states that she isn't challenging the allegation that she'd had lesbian sex as a form of libel, in that lesbian sex isn't "disgraceful". If lesbian sex had been a crime that was being enforced at the time, she would not have been able to say this in court - she would have gone to jail. In the event the journalist was sentenced to a week's arrest, a fine and the payment of court fees. -Chumchum7 (talk) 21:18, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

  As far as I know there are several facts about the criminalization of homosexuality in Poland that are not disputed:

  1. After Poland became independent in 1918, the legislature didn't pass any anti-gay laws. However, different laws criminalizing homosexuality (with varying scopes, punishments, etc.) that had been put in place by the Russian, German, and Austrian empires remained on the books—whether they were enforced or not.
  2. In 1932, the Polish legislature passed a new criminal code into law. According to the new criminal code, homosexuality was not a crime (but see the caveats discussed by Monika Płatek)
  3. Jurisdictions that never criminalized sex between women but did criminalize sex between men (i.e. Germany) are widely described as criminalizing homosexuality. Indeed the majority of criminal laws against homosexuality only targeted men and decriminalization rarely if ever brought full equality and erased social stigma
  4. Various sources state that Poland decriminalized homosexuality in 1932.

  Is this accurate? (t · c) buidhe 21:43, 19 November 2023 (UTC)