Talk:L'Arc~en~Ciel/Move Discussion Archive

This is an archive of the move discussion and votes. As the move was performed, this is no longer needed on the current Talk page.

Requested move

• Support - The band's official name uses the tilde's, and other non-English Wikipedias use that name for their articles, such as on the German version. ^demon 18:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support - Nice to see that this article's title finally caught the attention of some people who agree that it should be changed. Kamezuki 11:17, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose, for the reasons given above and below. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Requested Move Discussion (formerly: What's wrong with the tildes?)

I just came across this article and saw that there seems to be some opposition against using tildes in the band's name. There is nothing wrong with using tildes; in fact, they should be used for the sake of accuracy, as they are officially part of the band's name. Similarly, the album and single titles with their various typographies should not be formatted to one particular standard; they are the official names of the albums and singles and should be represented as such. Kamezuki 01:33, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

What does "official" mean here? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:34, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

"Official" means the names, capitalization, and punctuation as indicated on the band's official site, as well as on each of their releases and magazine interviews. I agree with Kamezuki. --Shiokaze 20:39, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Then I don't think that this cuts any ice. As an encyclopædia we try to stick to standard, accepted English usage. Standard usage is to use hyphens, not tildes, as hyphens, and to capitalise titles in certain set ways (capitals for all words except articles, conjunctions, and prepositions, for example). Publishers, record companies, advertisers, web sites, etc., can all mess around with non-standard typography in order to attract attention or look "cool" or whatever, but we shouldn't (in the same way, publishers' blurbs, journalism, advertising, etc, make much use of slang, careless English, contractions, etc., but we don't — and it doesn't matter how many sources use language in those ways). The article might mention that the band's name is written using tildes on CD covers, Web-site, etc., but we shouldn't use them ourselves. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:48, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I understand your line of thought, but since this is an encyclopedia, should it not reflect the correct (and most widely known) typographies of the band's name, etc.? After all, there are articles on here for musicians that use the template {{Wrongtitle}} to denote when capitalization should not be used in the artists' names (aiko, for example). Clearly, names of musicians and bands without the first letter capitalized are written in non-standard typography, right? And yet, articles using that template to denote such artists, titles, etc. are abundant. Secondly, Category:Japanese musical groups features many band names using non-standard typographies, and not just pertaining to capitalization--there's BOØWY, 3B LAB.*, and W-inds. to name a few. Finally, the other language Wikipedia articles which are linked from this one all feature tildes in the band's name. What's so different about this article to warrant the use of hyphens instead? Kamezuki 01:29, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I can't speak for other Wikipedias (and this one had the tildes until they were corrected). I've already responded to your first and main point, though: yes, we should say that the customary/standard typography makes use of tildes. Note, incidentally, that the tilde shows differently in different type-faces and character sets; the tilde is, after all, a diacritic intended to be placed over a letter, and so should appear much higher than a hyphen. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:13, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that all of the listings that are not using the tildes should, because, even though it is a pain to type, it is still part of the groups name. Also, I don't think that "Link" c/w "Promised Land 2005" was really P'unk~En~Ciel. "LINK" was actually done for the movie "Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: SHAMBARRA no Iku Mono" and so was "LOST HEAVEN" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aeris of iniquity (talk • contribs) 03:41, 20 September 2005.

I see that this is your first edit here. You're not by any chance Kamezuki (talk · contribs) are you? And Shiokaze (talk · contribs), who hasn't made a single edit, his message here having in fact been left by 82.58.201.66 (talk · contribs) — could that by Kamezuki too? Or by you? In any case, I've seen no good ground for changing the typography. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:00, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Neither of those people are me; I don't have more than one account. Please don't assume they are me just because they agree with my reasoning. Kamezuki 17:48, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, I thought that they might be you because they agreed with you and they'd never posted before. I apologise if my suspicion was ill-founded. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the use of the tildes. At the very least, the band's name should be referred to with the tildes within the title. It IS their official name, and to just simply note that the group uses tildes without showing it, makes it feel irrelevent and unclear, especially to those who are seeing this band for the first time. It should probably be noted within the article that the tilde is probably used aesthetically over the hyphen, as to "excuse" the use of hyphens within the rest of the article.

The hyphens ARE used on their official website though, possibly to make it easier to access their site - still, the site can be Googled up with the tildes as well. Since they use the hyphens on their website, it won't be too farfetched that we're using them here.

It should be noted that other bands in Wikipedia do follow the aesthetics of the band's name, despite untraditional use of the English language (from Japanese bands like the pillows, GO!GO!7188, D'espairs Ray to Western ones like *NSYNC, Mötley Crüe, etc ... although Korn (KoЯn) is somewhat of an exception since the backward "R" can't even be created with a keyboard).

I personally don't see too much problem with the tilde at all. But if it is really too unconventional as to be purely aesthetic or so, the band's original name with tildes can (and I feel, SHOULD) appear as it should be, at the very least, within the bold-introducing name (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks)). -- Shadowolf 10:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Please, if the band spell their name using tildes, so should we. It's not a promotional variation from their name on posters; it's their actual name. The French phrase is "l'arc-en-ciel", but the band have modified that to create their name, "L'Arc~en~Ciel". Cf pages about other Japanese names containing tildes, such as D.C. ~Da Capo~ and several others. I've not seen anyone except Mel Etitis in favour of the hyphens. It seems to me that the consensus of the majority can be safely said to use the tildes... --AlexChurchill 11:54, 10 November 2005 (UTC)