Talk:Kris

Function

I note the comment of the following "Functionally, the kris is not a slashing weapon like a bowie knife or other fighting knife, but rather a stabbing instrument. The kris was mostly out-matched against anything other than another kris."

Akash - In Malay weapon, there are a lot of long distance weapon such as lembing, tombak, campak buang, as well as long handle weapon such as parang, golok, lading, pedang, etc. However, keris is favoured above others due to the fighting technique that was used. Malay fighting technique or silat stress on close combat which make short handle trusting weapon more effective. A slashing weapon would take time for a return slash. The short opening is all that is needed by someone with keris to move in for a single stab and then quickly move out. Imagine slashing a sword and receiving a keris stab at your neck.

Due to the weavy shape or "luk", damage done is out of propotion to the size of wounded. It cut maximum damage on it's way in and out, especially it is twisted on being pulled. In addition, it is not abnormal for the keris to be slightly rusted due to wet tropical climate, ensuring fatal infection within hours of untreated injury.

The shape of the hilt ensure a lot of thrusting power into the blade, compared to other types of stabbing weapon (except for ice pick). The hilt rest right in the middle of the palm confortably. One have to held the keris to know this.Yosri 11:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Could someone please mention what poison is used and how it was kept on the blade or in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.218.149.254 (talk) 19:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

In European fencing the serpentine dagger had the advantage that it was harder to grasp the blade with a gloved hand as a counter to a stab or to prevent its use. If you consider the geometry of a blade in a straight stab, the wavy part is a portion of a triabgle, and the cut produced is that which a triangle would have produced - not wider nor differently shaped than that from a triangular dagger of the same envelope. Markedly triangular ones were sometimes called a bollock dagger, I think. As a general comment, if you revert a change because you think a comment should be somewhere else - it seems entirely reasonable to expect you to actually put the comment where you think it should be - otherwise you look as if you are playing rules of procedure to defend a statement on which doubt has been cast. It is a copperative process of improvement we are engaged in, not a competition to present unchecked opinions. If you twise a bayonet or any other plain blade it does more harm, by all means cite a study showing additional injury frome wiggles.Midgley (talk) 22:09, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Midgley (talk) 22:09, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Beliefs

i am a Javanese, and here are my very limited knowledge regarding the keris :

keris are prized possessions not unlike Katana, and the owner of the keris make sure their keris is always at good shape, so it's unlikely that a keris will be found rusty.

furthermore, keris is believed to have the will of its own, so when people want to have a keris, the term used is not 'trading', but 'matchmaking', as if the person is going to marry the keris. further reference on this matter is required, though.

some people believe that the keris has its own will because a djinn is dwelling inside it.

furthermore, in Muslim majority Java, believing in the power of keris might be regarded as a shirk. however, keris is an inseparable part of Javanese culture, and possessing a keris while not believing in its power is fine. 202.162.35.132 05:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

article needs a picture of a keris

AFAIK, the Javanese owners of the Kris usually perform some rituals every few months or so, because they need to "bath" and "feed" their Kris. 114.121.97.58 (talk) 12:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry if this comment is way late. The kris among the wealth will be better treated but sharpening it will invariable worn it down, making it smaller. In fact the acid used will hasten the rust process. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5dbnAAAAMAAJ&q=keris+karat+sedikit&dq=keris+karat+sedikit&source=bl&ots=odXD5o9VnE&sig=LXlvfxuXQZlmKkxDJ_YlMdePW5U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GOdZUMyIEYOQrgeWkoDoCg&ved=0CFYQ6AEwCA Among commoner, it is clean up only when in use or only on special occasions. Ie wedding. Yosri (talk) 15:50, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Image

As the contributor above says, the article does need a picture of a kris. However, there does appear to be one - Keris Semenanjung monument.gif - but it's not displaying properly. I don't know why. Is it because it's a GIF? --A bit iffy 11:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

The image is 1 pixel by 1 pixel and 43 bytes...a little small. I've left a message on the contributor's talk page asking for a replacement. RJFJR 15:43, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a picture of a kris on the German page. Doesn't look fearsome, though :-). How about adding something about keris pusaka?

1911 EB

The following is from the Malay People article in the 1911 Encyclopaedia Brittannica:

The typical fighting costume of the Malay is a sleeveless jacket with texts from the Koran written upon it, short tight drawers reaching to the middle of the thigh, and the sarong is then bound tightly around the waist, leaving the hilt of the dagger worn in the girdle exposed to view. The principal weapon of the Malays is the kris, a short dagger with a small wooden or ivory handle, of which there are many varieties. The blade of a kris may either be wavy or straight, but if wavy the number of waves must always be uneven in number. The kris most prized by the Malays are those of Bugis (Celebes) manufacture, and of these the kind called tuasek are of the greatest value. Besides the short kris, the Malays use long straight kris with very narrow blades, shorter straight kris of the same form, short broad swords called sundang, long swords of ordinary pattern called pedang, somewhat shorter swords curved like scimitars with curiously carved handles called chenangkas, and short stabbing daggers called tumbok lade. The principal tools of the Malays are the parang or glok, a heavy knife used in the jungle, without which no peasant ever stirs abroad from his house, the beliong or native axe, and the pisau raut, which is used for scraping rattan. --Ancheta Wis 10:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Picture

A picture of a kris would be a fantastic addition to this page. Anyone out there have one that they would mind photographing? --Roman à clef 21:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Done, and tag removed.FelixFelix ^talk 16:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Aryo Penangsang

I notice that the Aryo Penangsang story is a bit different from the one that i heard before.
Aryo Penangsang did not inadvertently stab himself, he was stabbed by his enemy, He fell down, but, as a warrior, he was trying his best to stand up again, he encircled his scattered intestines on his kris and prepared himself to ram the stunned enemy. but, when he sheathed his kris, his intestines was cutted in pieces by his own kris and that was the way he died. 114.121.97.58 (talk) 12:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Purpose of the wavy blade?

Oddly, there's no mention of the purpose of the sinuous blade (the thing its best known for!) in the article. I've read/heard a million different explanations for it: it produces a larger wound, a more "ragged" wound, a wound which bleeds more than a regular blade, or it makes it easier to pull out of the body, or it makes the wound close up so the bleeding is internal instead of external, and (perhaps most likely of all) "it just looks cool". Can somebody provide a definitive explanation? The article cries out for it! Bullzeye ^contribs 23:37, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It represents fire.Aviator (talk) 15:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Done (Gunkarta (talk) 13:17, 21 August 2011 (UTC)).

Proposal for moving Article to Keris

Above: It also symbolizes water and the naga: the dragon-serpent. I argue as UNESCO has recognized the "keris" as Indonesian, and as Indonesia is archeologically proven the sole origin nation- orthography must follow the originator. Kris is simply English spelling to accommodate Malaysian pronunciation and the article notes other European spelling, none of which correct. Malaysia constitutes 25 million souls. Indonesa 235 million, Java 140+ million. Thus it is also demographically and democratically correct to rename the article. Exactly the same principle and argument would be used for "Wehrmacht", "Luftwaffe", "schadenfreude", "spiel", "zietgesit", "ouvre", "pasta", "matador" and many other non-English loan words- thus it is hypocritical and contradictory not to extend it to non European languages.Peeweebee (talk) 18:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree completely. It should be moved, for the reasons you state.```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.195.111 (talk) 03:06, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree to move this article to "Keris", it is known that in Indonesia and Malaysia, the nations that keris culture is prevalent, it is called "keris" (in both Indonesian language and Malay language, not to mention also in Javanese, Sundanese and Balinese). For the sake or original spelling, I vote for "keris" instead of "kris" (Gunkarta (talk) 11:41, 21 August 2011 (UTC)).

This is English Wikipedia - not Indonesian, Malaysian, or Javanese. Thus what is the English? A few of my texts say "Kris" and it is what I learnt when I first learnt Indonesian. --Merbabu (talk) 11:53, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

This article is owned by Merbabu. Nobody should change it or rename it to its real name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.96.157.43 (talk) 04:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

In all of the major articles here on Wikipedia, it is referred to as 'keris', adding weight to the argument to change it. 5.148.144.250 (talk) 11:55, 7 January 2016 (UTC)Trent

File:Semar Kris (alt) 3.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Semar Kris (alt) 3.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on August 17, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-08-17. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Picture of the day

The kris is an asymmetrical dagger from Southeast Asia famous for its distinctive wavy blade, although many have straight blades as well. A kris can be divided into three parts: bilah (blade), hulu (hilt), and warangka (sheath)Photograph: Chris Woodrich; edits: JJ Harrison

Southern Philippines?

Isn't the kris or kalis widespread throughout the Philippine archipelago? There's been archaeological evidence that people in both the Visayas and southern Luzon have manufactured and used kris/kalis for years.

sources: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14751 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13801 — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheaxHendible (talk • contribs) 15:24, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Influence on Frank Herbert's Dune stories?

File:Crysknife.jpg: A crysknife from Frank Herbert's Dune (2000)

Perhaps it is worth to mention, that in one of the most popular sci-fi series, Dune by Frank Herbert, the iconic blade of the Fremen is called crysknife. It is used for fighting as well as for ritual purposes, just as the real-life kris, and had a similar wavy shape. It is very likely that it was inspired by kris. Unfortunately I don't have source to verify that, but if anyone has, I think it should be included. Kenadra (talk) 17:39, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Nope, I personally think it's closer to the Janbiya, only that it's a stylized version. Jeblat (talk) 03:35, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

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Philippines

I don't understand, why Some of the Users were removing the Philippine part from the Infobox without any valid reason. is this for personal preferences or else?. The history of the Kris blade / in the Philippines known in Tagalog as Kalis was a variant of the keris, in which first appeared around 13th century, in which said originally from the island of Java (also originally from Champa in Vietnam in my opinion). From there the keris migrated to the Philippines where it becomes into the Kalis. (Albert G Van Zonneveld (2002). Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago. Koninklyk Instituut Voor Taal Land. ISBN 90-5450-004-2) Other countries in which the keris and keris-like weapons can be found include Malaysia, Brunei, and some other countries in Mainland Southeast Asia. the differences where All the Filipino types of kalis swords are both longer than those from the Malay world. Although it is considered to be a slashing weapon, the Kalis can be effectively used for thrusts and stabs. (Albert G Van Zonneveld (2002). Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago. Koninklyk Instituut Voor Taal Land. ISBN 90-5450-004-2) (Enola gay0 (talk))

Ps: anyone can explain the replies here. (Enola gay0 (talk))

@Enola gay0: I didn't noticed that you've already created a section in the talk page. You would need to ping the users that were directly involved in the reversal of your edits for disccusion- @Gunkarta: (edit this section and you'll see the parameters that I've used to ping Gunkarta as an example) so that they will be aware. Unfortunately for IP address users, you can't ping them here. Discuss your concerns here and don't engage in a Wikipedia:Edit warring until a public consensus has been reached. Thank you. -Jeblat (talk) 04:10, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

@Enola gay0: Also please do not use the same reference parameters as in the article here because it will appear right at the bottom of the replies of others, which might be confusing. -Jeblat (talk) 04:15, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Insufficient references and sources to insist for Philippines inclusion in this article. Moreover, for the Philippines adaptation or derivative of keris, is already covered in a separate specific article Kalis, which is different size and different weapon, albeit has similarities. I do not think the inclusion of the Philippines in infobox is necessary, provided that the kris culture is not that prevalent in the country. Gunkarta  talk  19:44, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

@Gunkarta: , " kris culture is not that prevalent in the country." kalis was an "evolution" of Kris (using by Luzones and Mindanaoans) . then why it isnt , plus since that you sated its not prevalent here, then why Ayutthayans (in which is ) far more preferring the Krabi Sword (which is closely related to Dha of burmese) than the Kris, but then they are included? this is the questionable part here in my opinion. (Enola gay0 (talk) 03:11, 26 March 2020 (UTC))

@Enola gay0: Please do not engage in a Wikipedia:Edit warring in the Kris or Kalis article until the discussion has been reached to a consensus. A warning has been issued to you. An avenue has been created and allows you to present your arguments coherently, backed by sources from reliable (preferably, scholarly) citations (just don't throw in a bunch of references that people cannot have access to the materials). Take your time to write out your points to defend your arguments part by part, and also to respond to @Gunkarta:'s arguments in the same manner. -Jeblat (talk) 04:15, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

then if I couldn't correct the anomaly on the article because it was a form of edit warring, (like the IP did), then we should have a Proper consensus. in courtesy of what Gunkarta said, Kris is not prevalent in the Philippines. so Indonesian inclusion in the Kalis is necessary as well, we should separate the two identical types of Kris. (Enola gay0 (talk) 11:19, 26 March 2020 (UTC))

Ps: my concern in the Quality of Wikipedia, because some of the Moderators are (in my personal observation) especially IP editors inhibiting the reasonable facts, and sometimes they just reverting or distorting/ deleting the contents in every article in which they don't feel in favor and sticking on the type of version that they like (Wikipedia is not like this supposedly as WP:NPOV). in which they preferred, disregarding the scholarly, legit sources of the new versions contain. plus they just do it without any valid reason just saying "irrelevant" and "No", this type of egoist manner of some members (i didn't blame everyone) will degrade the Wikipedia's quality of information, maybe some of us will keep reverting the article because of they have the basis and urge to correct a piece of information as you know Wikipedians, but some of the members aren't. they just make decisions of their own! deletion omitting the parts of an article in which they don't like or in short a BS. over or against info that stated in an article, I hope we shouldn't be like this we need a good consensus and tolerance over different cultures. and not dominate or vandalized an article. (Enola gay0 (talk) 11:39, 26 March 2020 (UTC))

You do not need to insinuate somebody being not neutral whatsoever, it is irrelevant and nonsensical. Just provide us with strong sources and references. The source you provides was instead mentioning the kris prevalency in Indonesian archipelago. It is commonly accepted that kris is most prevalent in Indonesia and also Malaysia, to lesser extent probably also in Southern Thailand's Malay Peninsula. While in Philippines it was its derivative, the kalis that was prevalent. I think we should stick to the established facts and well cited sources, that kalis is the derivative version of kris, and it is (slightly) different in size, and it already have separately specific and dedicated article, kalis. This Philippines derivative already quite well elaborates in kalis article, I think you should go there instead of messing with stable version of kris. Otherwise, just provide with scholarly source of kris prevalency in the Philippines. The kris-kalis links/relations already sufficiently mentioned and explained in both articles. No need to mixed and blurred them again, especially in that infobox section. Gunkarta  talk  15:58, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

that altitude of your's, addition of IP vandalism and deletions are the most irrelevant, and unreasonable of all, my point is Indonesian should be necessary to include in the kalis (in courtesy of you're explanations) but Jeblat accused me of "edit warring", while the disrupted editor in a mysterious Ip user is in Scott-free, Yes! we should have to discuss more of the anomaly with proper sources I agree since you cannot provide on a non-Indonesian perspective, we need a more discussion of how to deal with this. because I must be bold for the sake of NPOV.

btw, I'm just expressing my discontent over the dominating entities here in Wikipedia since the IP who undoing my versions. this is a questionable part for me those IP and the tolerating moderators have been a topic outside Wikipedia making the schools especially in the Philippines don't recommend Wikipedia in more professional research in history. (03:34, 27 March 2020 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enola gay0 (talk • contribs)

@Enola gay0:In regards to edit warring, if you look into the talk page of those IP users, they have been issued; in fact a more severe warning than yours. I also noticed that you've removed the warning from your talk page. I agree with you that wikipedia on itself is not a recommended source of citation in education, professional or journalism research.

I also think that the Kampilan has a bigger significant standing compared to the kalis in the Philippines itself, but I'm not denying the importance of kalis in Filipino culture as well.

"so Indonesian inclusion in the Kalis is necessary as well, we should separate the two identical types of Kris.": There is already a separation as I understand it, the Kris and Kalis. But just to be clear, when you say that the kris is prevalent in the Philippines, are you specifically referring to the kris itself; in the form as we know it today, or are you referring to specifically the kalis itself? I've noticed that you've placed it in the service section of the infobox. Were there any specific events (eg. wars, official ceremonies, etc.) that the kris (not to be confused with the kalis) was used in the Philippines? If so, please provide the sources as that would be interesting. Because most of your comments so far have nothing substantial about the case of your arguments, but complains about other wiki users/editors. -Jeblat (talk) 04:38, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Languages

@Raja dwi maharaputra:, let's put an end to the edit-warring. State your case and provide evidence on why the kris is not spelled "keris" in the varieties of Malay languages which lie outside of Indonesia. Haleth (talk) 14:25, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a great Javanese cultural heritage, the name of the keris comes from Java and has been used by many tribes, not only the Malays L Malay language but also Aceh, Minang, Banjar, Bali, etc. Indonesian languages ​​page are appropriate to represent all ethnic groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raja dwi maharaputra (talk • contribs) 14:33, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

• Sure, which is why if you've looked at article history, I've edited the article a while ago to emphasize its Javanese cultural origins as opposed to an undue emphasis on being a political symbol for a nation state (Indonesia) that still has some time to go before it reaches a hundred years old if compared to the history of Javanese culture. However, per WP:NPOV policy which is not negotiable, it is a verifiable fact that the kris has been adopted as a cultural symbol by many other cultures outside of the Javanese people whether you wish to acknowledge it or not: some of them come under the political sphere of Indonesia, others under Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Sri Lanka, Southern Thailand, and so on. Even the Filipine kalis is related, but it's a moot point since there is a standalone article. If we are going to be technical, standard Indonesian is itself derived from Malay, a Riau Malay dialect to be exact. Following that logic, swapping "Indonesian language" with "Malay languages" would solve the problem of being inclusive, does it not? "Keris" is the spelling used in standard Indonesian and all the other varieties of Malay. Presenting only one major language in the lede for a shared cultural symbol within the region is unhelpful and indiscriminate, and serves only to give an impression that you are pushing a nationalist POV. Wikipedia has a global audience, and I'll repeat one more time. WP:NPOV is not negotiable, and you have not provided any evidence that the kris used in Malay-speaking communities outside of Indonesia do not use the spelling "keris". Haleth (talk) 14:58, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

@Culturehistory:, if you have a disagreement on how information should be presented in the lede, please discuss it here instead of escalating the reverts. I also invite you to read the above response I made to another editor about a neutral point of view. Haleth (talk) 03:21, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Popular Culture

With Demon Slayer/Kimetsu no Yaiba now being rather popular, would it be a good idea to include that the Serpent Hashira, Obanai Iguro, uses a twisted sword that is similar to a Kris? Buntramon (talk) 21:43, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Is this article's tone or style not satisfactory?

@Orchastrattor: Why does the article have this cleanup tag? Jarble (talk) 13:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

First and third paragraphs of the lead, all of the discussion of its cultural heritage read like WP:PROMOTION or something otherwise unencyclopedic. Orchastrattor (talk) 14:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Nationalism, again

When you compare the currently disputed lede versions with what the UNESCO writes about the kris, you will immediately notice that something is off here (and guess why): The kris or keris is a distinctive, asymmetrical dagger from Indonesia. Both weapon and spiritual object, the kris is considered to possess magical powers. The earliest known kris go back to the tenth century and most probably spread from the island of Java throughout South-East Asia.

Obviously, NPOV lies inbetween the extremes of uttering "Indonesian" and "Malaysian" in one breath and clinically removing from the lede any reference to the occurrence and cultural significance outside of Indonesia. Austronesier (talk) 14:06, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I 100% agree with the statement, "The kris or keris is a distinctive, asymmetrical dagger from Indonesia". Since you invoked WP:ONUS, then I'll quote "consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article. Such information should be omitted or presented instead in a different article". I don't see any positive or negative consensus anywhere on the talk page, certainly from the last time I edited it, that decides whether this article should only discuss the item exclusively within an Indonesian context and that all other sources which suggest the cultural significance of the item in a country outside of Indonesia should be excluded in the absence of a clear consensus. Note that some fanatical editors have consistently tried to remove categories referring to Malaysia or any other country from the bottom of the page as if it is mutually exclusive with its Indonesian identifiers.

I don't feel strongly about the inclusion of "Malaysian" here either and honestly I'm sick and tired of the Malaysia vs Indonesia nationalist shitfights that happen all the time. But as the first step towards building consensus, I'd like to know: can you state your position as whether you are open to the possibility that an article about the topic, regardless of its origin, could explores its significance within two or more countries? Or should we look into spinning Malaysian keris out of keris, just like how there's batik v Malaysian batik? Haleth (talk) 14:29, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, most entries in English dictionaries define kris as a "Malay or Indonesian dagger". I don't think that nation-based content forking is a good solution. It creates safe havens for editors not capable of collaborative NPOV editing (our common goal should be to get those chauvinist dimheads either brought to senses or blocked; they will never show their real face in a parallel fork universe).

While the origin of the kris is within Indonesian territory, by no means this should preclude us from covering the diffusion of this cultural item beyond present-day borders, both in the lede and the main article text. In some articles like Songket, it appears to work well. It should here, too. –Austronesier (talk) 16:17, 25 December 2023 (UTC)