Talk:Kragerø

krák/kráka

the meaning of what's in brackets here is not clear:

The first element is probably the genitive case of krák, which means "crow" (a form of kráka meaning "crow").

I changed the verb, and the non-English term "sideform" in the main phrase but left it untouched; my Norwegian vocabulary is not very large, but it seems that's what is meant here is that kráka is the modern Norwegian word, and krák is a form of it; if that's the case what should be in brackets should/would be "krák is a[n older] form of kráka is the modern Norwegian word for "crow"". Repeating "meaning crow" is pointless. Maybe the end result should be:

The first element is probably the genetive case of krák, meaning crow. Krák is a form of the modern Norwegian kráka.

That's all that's needed, though maybe the second sentence could be "krák is an archaic form...." or "krák is an older form", either one, whichever is more suitable. If that's not the intended meaning, please explain. Is kráka, also, Nynorsk, and kráken would be Bokmål?Skookum1 (talk) 03:57, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Old Norse kráka is kråke (kråka is «sideform», but rarely used) in Nynorsk and kråke in bokmål. Definite forms are kråka in Nynorsk and kråka or kråken in bokmål. However, kråken is never used, kråke, ku a few other nouns are never really inflected as masculine nouns - even by the most conservative riksmål users. The form kråken is only included in a few dictionaries and it is just because every single feminine noun can be inflected as either feminine or masculine in Bokmål. The same applies to the definite form of neuter words. As a result, it is allowed to write beinene, but we all use beina insted (beina [beini] in Nynorsk). 85.166.240.58 (talk) 23:48, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Also, what is the difference in pronunciation of the [á] vs. [a], e.g. the difference between krák and "krak", as in the kraken. Could this not be "isle of the kraken"?? or does that vowel make all the difference; I know in Icelandic it's a different vowel, is that also the case in Norwegian.Skookum1 (talk) 04:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Neither krák, nor kráka (or kráken)) are modern Norwegian words. The modern word for crow is kråke. Both krák and kráka are probably Norse words. Though I am no expert in Norse, a discussion I was involved in regarding another place name leads me to believe that the latter is the (plural) genitive case of the former. The grammar tables in the article on Old Norse supports this.

From what I remember reading/learning somewhere, the [á] sound has changed to [å] in modern Norwegian. I can't think of any words in modern Norwegian having the letter á. [å] is a completely different vowel from [a], though it evolved from a long [a] (hence Aalborg/Ålborg). Ters (talk) 08:33, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

<Á> is pronounced [ɑː], the acute being a length marker. ᛭ LokiClock (talk) 16:30, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

that's why I was asking about the [á], I didn't recognize it as being in modern Norwegian, but I'm not familiar with Nynorsk either. So I'll adjust the phrasing to:

The first element is probably the genetive case of krák, meaning crow.

If that's not right please adjust; it seems needless to have the second phrase at all; only confuses things for English readers (or, perhaps, any readers).Skookum1 (talk) 15:05, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Krák is not another form of kráka or krákr by my knowledge. The genitive of those are kráku and kráks. If it has the one strong form already, there are considerably less chances for a second of a different gender, which would have to be rare enough to fail inclusion in Cleasby-Vigfússon. The statement is unsourced, so it is probably a folk etymology at best. Googling krákarøy seems to give mainly copies of this Wikipedia article. There is one result for krákarey as krakarey in a book that does distinguish length, and one result for krákarøy etymology, which appears to take from Wikipedia. ᛭ LokiClock (talk) 16:30, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

....wiki-cloning is a good reason we all have to make sure articles are accurate, huh? it's almost like Wikipedia can create folk etymologies/sources huh? Anyway, given that the name-form is Danish, would there be any lexical/phonological distinction there, or would you think it would simply have been a Danish spelling of a Norwegian usage. Strikes me that there aren't any crags in Denmark LOL....what I mean is could the derivation be Danish and that might be different from the type of Old Norse that led to Norwegian, or are they basically the same?Skookum1 (talk) 14:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

And would this simply be "island of crags", with "krager" being a plural?Skookum1 (talk) 14:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The e could be a plural of the crow words, after the merging of Old Danish unstressed -a/i/u, or it could be the strong masculine form's nominative singular after epenthesis. Ordbog til det ældre danske sprog, a later Old Danish dictionary, gives one word for "krage" (a tree appropriate for use as a ladder) and none for "krag." Many are given for "krak," (including monster, as in kraken) but none to do with crags. The etymology from "kráka" seems more likely to me, but neither give any source. If you have a strong feminine or a variation of the strong form with a genitive -ar, then those genitives would be -er in later Old Danish. Old Norse uses these genitive compounds more often than simply gluing the lemmata together as in English, always if e.g. "compword" it would mean "word of comp." Old East Norse (Danish, Swedish, eastern Norwegian) and Old West Norse (Icelandic, Faroese, western Norwegian) are indeed quite different, obviously in the merger of wikt:ey/wikt:øy to ǿ which produced the word for island. I don't know all the possible variant forms to look for, and can't claim thoroughness, but the burden of proof is ultimately on the claimant and not the skeptic, so without further ado... ᛭ LokiClock (talk) 22:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I haven't look at the Norwegian version(s) of the page (yet), and no.wikipedia.org is often not as sourced/reference as English Wikipedia, but I'd guess that it might be in local tourism bumpf or some folk-history source that the "crow" claim comes from; so when found, if found, a line saying "local tradition, as in the publications of the local town council/museum, says that the meaning is "island oof crows", even though linguists are unable to confirm the etymology." = or something to that effect....Skookum1 (talk) 14:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

"The Pearl of the Coastal Towns" (Perlen blandt kystbyene)

What's "blandt" mean? Is the sense complete without a translation of it?Skookum1 (talk) 15:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

The word "blandt" essentially means "among". So "Perlen blandt kystbyene" literally means "The Pearl among the Coastal Towns". Dylansmrjones (talk) 16:04, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

K, thanks....learning little by little....Skookum1 (talk) 17:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Kragero Township, Chippewa County, Minnesota

Presumably this is named for Kragerø; if anyone knows of a specific migration or who it was who named the Minnesota township, perhaps it should be added to this article (and that one).Skookum1 (talk) 17:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

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