Talk:Koxinga/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

Chinese Title Whoa! Please kill the excess Chinese characters - there is no reason for them in the body. --Maveric149 (talk) 19:08, 23 January 2003 (UTC)

can this page be moved to Koxinga, the much more renowned name of Zheng Chenggong? -- User:kt2

Agree with removing the excess Chinese characters. Could you include the article's title in the text? It is not clear that it is the name of the person. Besides, maybe because of all the characters, the article is almost unreadable to me. Olivier (talk) 11:06, 27 January 2003 (UTC)

I killed the excessive Chinese characters and added an introductory paragraph. But I think the article is a bit "messy", maybe some copy-editing is needed. --Lorenzarius (talk) 11:46, 27 January 2003 (UTC)

Why do we completely delete the Chinese titles, because of the characters? People who like to study this do need them...

I note that Koxinga's mother is given as having committed suicide out of loyalty to the Ming. In the link to the article, however, she is given as having been raped and killed when she joined Koxinga in China. Which version is correct? (Note that Koxinga's mother was Japanese, which is not referred to in the entry. This is just one aspect of a general slant towards Koxinga as a 'Chinese national hero'. Are there other dimensions of Koxinga that have not been explored in the article?)

Goodness yes. It's fascinating to see how supporters of Chinese nationalism and Taiwan independence portray Koxinga differently.

Koxinga is famous in Japan too. A Japanese play Kokusen'ya Kassen (1715) by Chikamatsu Monzaemon deals with him. The leading character modeled after him is called Watônai, which indicates "neither Japanese nor Chinese". -- Nanshu

Loyal to the Ming

I would again like to raise the issue of Koxinga's mother and her loyalty to the Ming.

Since Koxinga's mother was Japanese, it sounds strange that she should have committed suicide for a foreign dynasty. It sounds like part of the Koxinga 'hero story'. The alternative story that she was raped and killed sounds more likely.

Does anyone know which story is correct?

According to "Li Ao" his mother was raped and killed by the Manchus. To purify his mother's body Zheng gong order to "wash" the body. -CW

it is more likely that she was raped and committed suicide, since women were encouraged and sometimes forced to commit suicide after being raped. it is also probable that she was killed by the Manchu; they already execute the father, why not the mother, too? Kc0616 (talk) 16:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic Hero

Incidentally, I've been told that Koxinga is officially regarded as a 'minzu yingxiong' (ethnic hero) by the Chinese. This is different from a fully fledged national Chinese hero. The reason is because he fought against the Qing, who also belong to the Zhonghua Minzu ('Chinese peoples'). It would not be politically proper to elevate such a person to a national hero.

Well, I think he's called a 'minzu yingxiong' by the PRC for fighting the dutch, not for fighting the Manchus. Actually, in mainland China, Zheng Chenggong is widely known for his fighting against the dutch and the 'reoccupation' of Taiwan. The fact that he also fought the Manchus is less known, if not completely unheard of, in the mainland. --Liuyao 07:59, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Why is it also a national hero in japan?

Clearly, the Japanese think since he is half Japanese and he did defeat the Dutch, it is something to be proud off and not surrendering just like someone who follow the code of bushido.

he studied confucious, not bushido since he was in china.... he doesnt even know what it meant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.138.135 (talk) 23:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Dutch women

and he order thousands Dutch women married not yet should be stay and married to his army.

I just removed this. I'm not sure if it was vandalism or what. If it is true information, it is certainly interesting and should be included in the article. Anyone know anything about it and if there are any reliable sources for it? Readin (talk) 15:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

He landed in Tainan county and people lived in there many noses and eyes color were some different other Chinese till today.

Rewrite of article

I erased the word Hero and replaced it with Landing as much of the "Hero" mystique is the result of modern tinkering with history. This is reflected at Fort Zeelandia where the information claims Zheng came to Taiwan to retake the island for China. A claim that has never been supported. During the Japanese occupation they exemplified Zheng's mother to show Taiwan's closeness with Japan.

I'm going to try to fix this page up a bit. I've changed his mother's name to just 'Tagawa' as almost every source agrees that her name is unknown. I've left the link to the 'Tagawa Matsu' page. Not sure why wikipedia thinks that her name is Matsu as I've never seen that as even a suggestion anywhere else. Limeatine (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC) I've gotten up to the period before he begins negotiating with the Qing. I'll finish the rest later. Limeatine (talk) 05:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm gong to delete the "Death of His Mother" section, as I've included the episode within the "Fighting the Qing" and the story about the burning of scholar's robes belongs in section concerning the various legends surrounding Zheng (miraculous birth, the so called 'Black Guard', etc.). Limeatine (talk) 22:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I applaud Limeatine's efforts to write a factual, unbiassed article on Koxinga.

Bathrobe (talk) 00:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Bathrobe, I appreciate the support. For reference, I've just noticed that Tonio Andrade's How Taiwan Became Chinese has Zheng's mom as 'Tagawa Matsu' (田川松), but he doesn't give his source. (Tonio Andrade, How Taiwan Became Chinese: Dutch, Spanish, and Han Colonization in the Seventeenth Century, E-book (New York: Columbia University Press, 2007), Chapter 10, Note 10.). I'm going to leave it as just 'Tagawa' for the time being as every other academic source I've looked at says it's unknown. Limeatine (talk) 05:08, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if this can help, but there is an article by Patricia Carioti (an Italian historian) called "The Zhengs' Maritime Power in the International Context of the 17th Century Far East Seas: The Rise of a 'Centralised Piratical Organisation' and Its Gradual Development into an Informal 'State'" (in Ming Qing Yanjiu [Naples] 1996: 29-67). Lol, this must be one of the worst article titles I've ever seen, but the content sounds relevant! The journal Ming Qing Yanjiu should be available in the library of universities that have a good sinology department. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 07:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Madalibi! I'll see if I can get a hold of that. Limeatine (talk) 00:57, 10 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Limeatine (talk • contribs) 23:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

King of Taiwan?

I changed the King of Taiwan to King of Tungning since there was no Kingdom of Taiwan. Any objections let me know. --Mistakefinder (talk) 16:31, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Chinese State

and became the leader of the first Chinese state to rule the island

established Chinese rule over the island

I changed two places that describe "Chinese" government so that they now include the word "ethincally". The wording is a bit awkward, but the previous wording could easily be misread to imply that Koxinga had brought the island under the rule of the government of China. This misinterpretation was especially likely to happen in the second instance.

But I think the wording is a little awkward. Perhaps "culturall" rather than "ethnically" would be better, if it conveys the intended meaning properly. Anyone have any ideas for improving the wording while avoiding giving the wrong impression? Readin (talk) 07:41, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

"culturally" does not seem to be a better word than "ethnically". Perhaps it may be better to avoid using these terms totally. Take a look at these:

and became the leader of the Kingdom of Tungning which ruled the island from...

captured the island from the Dutch

Lonelydarksky (talk) 08:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Saying ethinically Chinese sounds fine to me. Lonelydarsky's suggestions work also. --Mistakefinder (talk) 16:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Military campaigns

I intend to use Chinese Wikipedia and Baidu Baike as preliminary references for the military campaigns part, since I don't have access to the resources suggested by Limeatine above. So, where should we start? _LDS (talk) 11:15, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

The battle of Chaozhou, as shown on the Chinese Wikipedia page, seems like a good place to begin working on for this page. _LDS (talk) 11:27, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Logical Error on the Article

Either Tagawa was not Zheng Chenggong's birth mother, or Tagawa Shichizaemon was not his younger half-brother, or Zheng Zhilong was not Tagawa's husband at the time of her death as suggested in the section describing her death. They cannot all be correct at the same time. That is logically impossible. Marcopolo112233 (talk) 09:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Well logically, it's quite possible for a woman (or a man) to have a child with someone they are not married to while married to someone else. I think you're probably right in principle here, though. Zheng Zhilong probably shouldn't be described as her 'husband', as the sources are not especially clear about. If they were married, she was almost certainly not his first wife, and its quite possible they weren't married at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.2.170 (talk) 23:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Resisting the Qing Dynasty bad sentence

"The fight carried out massacre in Zhangzhou.[19]" This doesn't make sense, and I don't know how to fix it. Wilson44691 (talk) 01:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Koxinga on the Philippines

I found this Chapter to be very confusing. Many things seem to be repeated, such as the attack on Formosa(Taiwan). I assume the whole passage is taken from a book or thesis. A stronger focus on Koxinga's actions would make it more readable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.14.245.15 (talk) 22:45, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Repetitive information

Koxinga#Concubine seems to repeat onto itself over and over again on the fact a Dutch girl was made his concubine or how sweet she was. It seems every one of these paragraphs were quoted from a different source.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 18:45, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The users (User:Chriekker and User:Alliando) who added the text seem to be the same person as User:Rund Van, who habitually inserts huge chunks of repetitive text into various articles. I've summarized the info and removed most of the irrelevant text. -Zanhe (talk) 21:59, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

While the repetitiveness was certainly a problem, I think for the sources that remain, the quotes in the citations should also remain. When people want to verify information it is enormously helpful to first be able to see the exact quote in order to check for POV issues on the part of the person using the sources, and second to quickly and easily find the parted of the cited work that directly applies to information in the article. Readin (talk) 15:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Short quotes from sources are fine, though not necessary for sources that are available online and easily verifiable. However, this user has the habit of copy-and-pasting huge blocks of text from sources, e.g. this edit. -Zanhe (talk) 17:17, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Commons image

Extent of territory held by Koxinga.

Would this image be useful on the English Wikipedia? If language is an issue, then someone should be able to make an English translation. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 10:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Seems fine to me, as long as you provide a legend specifying what the red and the pink mean... AnonMoos (talk) 17:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The German Wikipedia article on Koxinga lists the red area as territory controlled by Koxinga, and the pink as his sphere of influence. Smitty Smith (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Mother Seppuku

Tagawa Seppuku lonely at last, it beat Koxinga spirit deeply., Originally Koxinga want be a scholar,he run to temple of the Confucius, burn out scholar uniform and pray to Confucius, he said:[Lord, this uniform return to you! I give up be a scholar, Now begin I am a warrior!] (talk 23:51, 29 September 2009

I've returned the page to it's state prior to the little Hans yulun lai-Lonelydarksky edit war, as my English was butchered quite badly in the process, and several inaccuracies were introduced. For example; Taiwan was not reclaimed by Zheng Chenggong, it was just claimed as it had never been ruled by either the Zhengs or the Ming Dynasty before 1662. Also, you cannot call the Longwu Emperor 'Longwu' (as in 'Longwu got up this morning and brushed his teeth'), because Longwu was not his name, it was his reign title.

I think this article still needs a lot of work. I haven't had time to write anything beyond the plan to assault Nanjing, and I think that there needs to be a section on the myths surrounding Zheng, including the different versions of his mother's death and the well known, but probably mythical, episode where he burnt his scholar's robes that Hans yulun mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Limeatine (talk • contribs) 19:46, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

No offence to you, Limeatine. I didn't mean to "butcher" your English with my edits and I apologise if you're offended. Anyway, there was no edit war between me and User:Hans yulun lai. He just simply added the mother seppuku section without any references. It was "dumped" directly on the article and written in poor English so I removed it. He put it back after that and I removed it again. It wasn't an edit war, in my opinion. I changed some of the wording in the article after that. To be frank, some of the sentences in the current version are written in a narrative and somewhat informal style. We're not writing a story. I think it's alright to address the Longwu Emperor as "Longwu". If you look at other articles on emperors who are named according to their reign titles (eg Kangxi Emperor, Wanli Emperor), they are addressed by their reign titles. Please take note of that. Thanks. Lonelydarksky (talk) 07:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

i agree, the current version is too story-like and needs some changes to the wording.

Thanks in part to a major storm, the Manchus were decisively defeated and lost most of their fleet in the battle.

this sentence contains some bias, it makes it seem that editor is happy that the manchus lost. i think it should be rewritten as "the manchus were defeated in battle and lost most of their fleet due to a major storm."

the Yongli Emperor who was then fleeing the Manchus in south-western China with a rag-tag court, but despite one fruitless attempt, Zheng was able to do nothing to aid the last Ming emperor.

Wasn't the Ming emperor already deposed by another uprising, a few months before the Manchus showed up ?Eregli bob (talk) 12:23, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

this is another narrative-style sentence. "rag-tag" is too informal. "Zheng was able to do nothing to aid the last Ming emperor" is written from the perspective of zheng himself. you're not zheng so how can you write as though you're writing from his pov? i compared lonelydarksky's version with the current one. it was quite reasonable but some sentences may seem inaccurate as you've noted, but there's no need to totally revert everything, just correct those inaccuracies will do. one more thing, the chinese do consider taiwan as part of their land even before ming dynasty. it fell into the hands of the dutch and zheng "reclaimed" it from them so it's fine, in my opinion.

Well do with it as you will. By the way, what 'Chinese' people are you referring to? If you have any pre-1662 source where Taiwan is construed as Chinese territory, I would very much like to see it. Limeatine (talk) 18:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to whoever posted that comment above for pointing out the "faulty" sentences. The claim that Taiwan is Chinese territory before 1662 is probably fictional. One question to Limeatine: Presently, do you consider Taiwan as part of Chinese territory? The "Chinese" in my question refers to all Chinese people and descendants of the Chinese in general, regardless of their nationality. In my personal opinion, I regard Taiwan as Chinese territory and hope that the PRC and the Republic of China will reunite as one country. Lonelydarksky (talk) 07:29, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The definition you use in your question seems overly broad. I know a family with a father from America and a mother from Taiwan. Whether you consider Taiwan part of China or not, the children, now grown, have ancestry from China (several hundred years ago). The children are America, but according to your definition "descendants of the Chinese in general, regardless of their nationality", they are Chinese. Since by including that definition as part of your question about territory, it sounds like you are saying territory owned by people you consider "Chinese" would be considered "Chinese territory". So then, these American children of a white American father and an oriental Taiwanese mother, upon buying land in Idaho, would turn that land into "Chinese territory"?

According to the well-accepted "Out of Africa" theory, we are all descended from people from African. Does that make all territory populated by humans into "African territory"? Readin (talk) 20:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, Taiwan, is legally the territory of the ROC, which controls it, and the ROC still defines itself as "Chinese". So, for what it's worth, yes, Taiwan, since 1945, has been Chinese territory. The argument that Chen Shuibian has recently made that it is not in fact legally the territory of the ROC is interesting, but ultimately indefensible, I think. My political preferences on the future of Taiwan and the ROC I will keep to myself I think, as they really are not at all relevant to the article at hand. Limeatine (talk) 19:51, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Lonleydarksky, I won't change it back, as I don't want to get into an edit war here, but I would like to point out a few problems with the changes you've made to what I wrote in this article so you can consider changing them yourself. First, I wrote that according to traditional accounts, Zheng's mom committed suicide. I put in the 'traditional accounts' bit, because this is not universally accepted. Some sources maintain that she was in fact killed by the Manchus. I'm not sure why you decided to cut that out. Second, for some reason you changed my written 'forty' to '40'. Why? In formal writing, numbers of less than 1000 with out decimals or fractions are written in words. Writing in numerals is a careless mistake that people sometimes make, but it's particularly galling when you've changed someone else's writing from the correct to incorrect form. Third, I notice that many, but not all, of the footnote marks I put in have somehow come unanchored from the sentences or clauses they refer to and are now floating in somekind of no-man's land between sentences. Why's this exactly? Finally, to weigh in on the 'ethnically' vs 'culturally' debate below, 'culturally' I think would be a lot more accurate (Zheng did introduce a Ming-style administration), as 'ethnically' is questionable because some of the people who fell under his control were Taiwanian Aborigines who were not ethnically Chinese, and Zheng himself (though culturally very Chinese- or rather very Ming) was half-Japanese.

If you would consider fixing these problems, that would be grand. I might also suggest that if you have a real interest in this particular article, more could be added to the bits I wrote (I mean adding info, not just making the sentences choppier and applying your other stylistic preferences), and several sections need to be added about the Nanjing campaign and everything afterward. Lynn Struve's Southern Ming, which I used for much of the military bits is an excellent place to start for the Nanjing part. Jonathan Clements Coxinga and the Fall of the Ming Dynasty gives a much more sensationalised account, but is still pretty well cited. The conquest of Taiwan has been very well covered in the literature. Tonio Andrade's e-book that I cited (but see I forgot to add to the bibliography) is good place to start but books by Robert Shepherd and John Wills are also useful. If you can read Chinese, the obvious place to start is the Qing Veritable Records and the Taiwan Waichi. That might be a little more constructive use of your time. Limeatine (talk) 00:05, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out those problems. I've fixed them, or did I miss out any? I felt that the "traditional accounts" was a bit redundant since the source is already cited, but never mind. I'll consider working on those sections in the Nanjing campaign. I'll be quite busy in the next two months so please allow me some time to settle my other commitments first. This article is not exclusively the property of any user so I think everyone has his/her rights to edit it, provided that those edits are not unconstructive. Please go ahead if you wish to make any changes or add in anything new. I wouldn't want to be involved in an edit war. Thanks. Lonelydarksky (talk) 13:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree that my definition of "Chinese" above is too broad. I think you've misinterpreted my question to some extent. I don't mean to say that areas populated by Chinese are Chinese territories. Anyway, that's not really important so we shall not discuss further on that. Lonelydarksky (talk) 13:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Koxinga

The Dutch and Taiwan hate each other because the Dutch gives Taiwan taxes. Well, the Dutch did introduce a lot of news crops to Taiwan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Candacelin967 (talk • contribs) 03:50, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

King of Taiwan??

Changed Kingdom of Taiwan to Kingdom of Tuning. referenced the info box to its modern day location. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.194.142.89 (talk) 23:03, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Evidence that "Koxinga" is the common English name?

Anyone care to supply some sources? If not, it should be located at the native language name, which, according to naming conventions on Wikipedia, would be Zheng Chenggong. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Other than the fact that as an reader of English but not Chinese I am extremely familiar with the name "Koxinga" but have only seen "Zheng Chenggong" given as a translation of Koxinga and wouldn't recognize it. The reliable source rules apply to article content. I've not seen them applied to verifying the "common English name" of something where the common English name is well known. The reason for this is simple, you will hardly ever find a reliable source that says "The common English name for Y is X." Instead what you'll find is reliable sources that use it. So how many reliable sources do you need that use "Koxinga" instead of "Zheng Chenggong"? Or perhaps a google search record count would help?

"Koxinga Taiwan" 32,500

"Zheng Chenggong Taiwan" 14,300

Readin (talk) 12:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Some .gov sites from Taiwan:

Period of Koxinga

Koxinga's Shrine

And a [treaty available from the [Taiwan Document Project where the source is listed as Campbell, William. Formosa Under the Dutch (London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, 1903), pp. 455-456. showing that "Koxinga" was used way back in 1903.

Readin (talk) 12:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe there should be a further elaboration of where the name comes from. I don't have any sources but hear-say that Koxinga is the name the Dutch gave him, it's actually a "Dutchification" of his Chinese name, "ga" is namely a common suffix for family names in the north of the Netherlands e.g.: Siezenga, Huizinga, Velinga ...--Tomvasseur (talk) 14:33, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

It is evidently not a bizarre spelling of his personal name, it is a bizarre spelling of one of his official titles ( Guo Xing Ye ? ). All of the european sources seem to use this name, which suggests that he was contemporarily known by this title rather than his name.Eregli bob (talk) 12:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Koxinga is the Dutch spelling of the Southern Min (otherwise known as Hokkien or Taiwanese) pronunciation of his title, which is Kok-sèng-iâ. The Mandarin is Guoxingye. Han people in Taiwan would have been referring to the Ming loyalist as Kok-sèng-iâ, which the Dutch spelled Koxinga, probably from the Calvinist missionaries who were able to communicate with the aborigines and the Han immigrants. It is actually quite a close rendition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by B.hlavaty (talk • contribs) 15:27, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

As a Chinese speaker, its really weird reading the article with Koxinga being used as a name, its an honorific, used to prevent commoners and those of inferior status defiling him by using his given name. The effect is rather toadying as if in the article Charles, Prince of Wales we as editors felt it was too casual and familiar of us to use the name Charles, and had therefore substituted "His Royal Highness" for every occassion that it appears in the article.--KTo288 (talk) 22:02, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Appended "the" to Koxinga, as its a title not a personal name.--KTo288 (talk) 12:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

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GA nomination

This article isn't close to GA. It has numerous uncited paras for a start. Please have a look at the six GA criteria. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:21, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Who is "Prince Tang"?

Who is Prince Tang? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 11:31, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

He is the Longwu Emperor, which is already linked to the article. Artoria2e5 🌉 09:16, 22 November 2021 (UTC)