Talk:Koryo-saram/Archive 1

Post-Soviet states

Korean Population in Russia should be updated. Korean alone population probably about 500,000-800,000 ( Koreans living in Post-Soviet States, including Russia and Sakhalin Islands). If you combine Korean mixed population ( Korean mixed with Post Soviet States and Russians). Korean population should be about 1 million or 1.5 million/2 million at least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koreametro1 (talk • contribs) 08:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

In the intro, would linking to Post-Soviet states be better than saying "former Soviet Union"? --- Hong Qi Gong 02:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

A bit of history and mention of some notable Soviet Koreans

Here's an article with a bit on the history of Korean migration to the Soviet Union[1]. It mentions some notable Soviet Koreans fighting on the side of the Soviets against Japan. --- Hong Qi Gong 02:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Kim Gyung Chun (金擎天/김경천) seems to be the best choice out of all of them since (not to mention the most interesting --- even graduated from a Japanese military academy, at one point). He became rooted in Soviet society, raised a family there, etc. Too bad, as far as I can tell, he doesn't even appear once the Korean wiki; the only mention of him is at in the list of graduates. (the guy mentioned at is not him but some contemporary politician with a similar name). Anyway, I'll put him under Prominent Koryo-saram pointing to this link. The other revolutionaries mentioned in that article, like An Jung-geun didn't really acquire an identity as Soviet Koreans or a place in society, they just lived in exile in Russia (PRE-revolutionary Russia, at that). cab 13:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Sakhalin Korean

It occured to me that because of the nature of what happened to them, there's probably even enough materials to have an article just on the Sakhalin Koreans themselves. [2] --- Hong Qi Gong 21:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, done. See Sakhalin Koreans. cab 11:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Immigration to Siberia and Russian Far East

I added a little more to the "Immigration to the Russian Far East" section and renamed it "Immigration to the Russian Far East and Siberia". I wonder if the article's organisation needs a little tweaking, because the Korean immigration to Russia and their subsequent deportation does not apply to the Sakhalin Koreans. And are there other Koreans in the former Soviet States that also did not come from the 1800s immigration and then deportation? --- Hong Qi Gong 01:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it ready?

Do you think it's time to release the article to public space so other people can contribute to it? I think I'm going to create a Category called "Overseas Korean". --- Hong Qi Gong 23:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

One-hour documentary

Found this one-hour documentary on Koryo Saram[3]. --- Hong Qi Gong 22:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool, thanks! I wonder if we can find enough material for a "Media representations of Koryo-saram" section to actually address similarities and differences w/the Korean American experience. So far, can only think of:

• That old Soviet film "Kolkholz Avant Garde" they mention on the documentary webpage
• Victor Tsoi (aside from singing, I think he appears in some movies too)
• There was a Koryo-saram character named Marina in one of Andrey Kurkov's books, either Death and the Penguin or its sequel. She was the wife of some Moscow mafioso.

Also I wonder what Korean surname they're talking about when they mention "Ten" like Elena Ten ... bloody Cyrillizations ... cab 01:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Resources in other wikis

Aargh, I can't believe I didn't find out about these until we almost finished the page ...

• and even a separate page about their language ()
• (高麗人), also got a stub (中央亞細亞韓國語)about the language.

Oh well, let me see if there's any good information in there that we can incorporate. cab 01:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the Korean article isn't that informative. The intro says that they are Korean people in the Post-Soviet States. There's an empty culture section and an empty history section. The language section, I'm not really sure, but I think it basically says that they use Korean, Russian, Ukrainian, and also a "Central Asia" dialect of Korean. There's actually an article on this supposed dialect, but it's only got a couple of sentences that, again from what I can tell, basically says that it's Korean with a historically older vocabulary.

Then there's a "famous people" section. There're only two listed that actually have articles of their own though. One of them is Victor Tsoi, and he's already listed here. The other is some politician in Ussuriysk. His notability is questionable though, the Korean article on him only has two sentences, with no sources.

There is a really good link on the Korean article though, and I've added it to this article. --- Hong Qi Gong 02:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The politician from Ussuriysk sounds like it must be Valery Kan (Валерий Кан), a local MP; he's moderately notable, but not in a good way, for assaulting the Soulfly's lead singer's stepdaughter (reportedly while drunk and trying to hit on her) and causing them to cancel their Russian tour. Then he used his parliamentary immunity to avoid charges.[4] cab 02:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Koreisky

The written/typed Russian translation of Koreisky is showing up as question marks even when the browser is using Unicode encoding. Should it be showing in Unicode, or is Unicode not able to display that? --- Hong Qi Gong 01:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops, that was just my browser screwing up and transmitting junk. Fixed. cab 01:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the term

Perhaps the article should mention when the term was coined, who coined it, and whether it can be seen as a deliberate attempt to avoid taking either side in the han(guk) (RoK) vs. joseon (DPR, PRC) name issue. If I knew the answers, I would do it myself. 23:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Other famous personalities

Should we also mention Kostya Tszyu and Yuliy Kim? KonstKaras 13:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Religion

anything about their religion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.116.197 (talk • contribs) 06:52, 3 November 2006

Well, missionaries from South Korea are responsible for a lot of the upsurge in ethnic-oriented activities among Central Asian Koreans (language classes, etc.) On the other hand, I've read a few accounts by Koryo-saram which state they were driven away from the Protestant churches due to the "ethnic didacticism" of the South Koreans (basically, the SK mentality that there was only one proper way for the Koryo-saram to express their identity as Koreans, that being by following everything South Koreans did). Also see [5]. cab 23:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Autonym

How outdated is the (Soviet?) term 고려사람/Корё сарам? The Russian 2002 census lists only five “Корё сарам” as opposed to 148,534 “Корейцы”.[6] Wikipeditor 20:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect this is an artifact of the census procedure itself, or at least people's habits in responding to the census, since on the internal passport, the nationality would be listed as Корейцы and not Корё сарам, so people responded to the census as such. (For those who don't know, the Russian census actually records whatever the respondent writes in the Nationality field; it's not just a multiple-choice question). See also Russification#Some factors impeding Russification. cab 01:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Tajikistan

My only source at present is Lee (2000, p. 139), but according to him there were only a few thousand between Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan, so any migration out of Tajikistan must have been on a fairly small scale. Although I reckon the info about the Tajik Civil War would still be useful, if it can be sourced. -- Visviva 14:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Expanded this section. Their population was as high as 13,000 in 1989, and one guy (not sure about reliability though, so I didn't put this one in) claims 18,000 in 1992 [7] cab 06:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Resources

Found these:

• In Korean language online encyclopedias:
  • Doosan Encyclopedia (Encyber)
  • Encyclopedia of Korean Culture (Empas)

Actually I think most of the information in those is already present here, thanks to CaliforniaAliBaba's remarkable work. But they might still have some value for cross-checking. Before you ask ... neither mentions where the name "Koryo-saram" comes from. I'm starting to wonder if it might not actually predate the deportations, and have something to do with the Anti-Korean Laws of the early 20th century ("oh, we're not Chosenjin, we're Koryo-saram!") Just a thought; no idea how to check it. -- Visviva 14:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Novukorut Bay

Not sure about this toponym; "novukorut" gets 1 GHit (this article) and "новукорут" (dumb transcription, dunno if I'm spelling it right) gets none. Any ideas? cab 22:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I know no one will care since it is 15 years ago but digging through korean sources, it seems it was the bay of Novgorod. Just a missspelling.Waltzingmogumogupeach (talk) 19:12, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Pic

The article starts with a picture of Yuliy Kim, but there's no caption to identify him. It would be great if the picture was captioned, because lots of people might not know who he is. Zombiflava 21:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:14, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Requesting to move this page to Goryeo-saram

So it can be reflexive with Goryeo. Kuebie (talk) 02:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The common name in the academic literature in English is Koryo-saram, not "Goryeo-saram". cab (talk) 02:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Viktor Tsoi's picture

Sources

The picture in question

One quote in favour of inclusion, which has been removed from the article: Pohl, J. Otto (1999). Ethnic Cleansing in the USSR, 1937-1949. Greenwood. pp. p. 18. ISBN 0313309213. One of the most famous Soviet Koreans was Viktor Tsoi. A popular rock star in the USSR, Tsoi was an ethnic Korean whose father and grandfather endured the trials of exile ... Tsoi's success is symptomatic of the social progress Soviet Koreans made between the 1950s and the 1980s. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help) cab (talk) 02:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

...Should not be there, he is only half Korean, the article states ethnic Koreans, he's not 100%, I'm tired of removing his picture and then getting yelled that I'm breaking a revert rule, clearly someone who is 100% Korean, should have a picture there, not Viktor Tsoi. Shogunpk (talk) 00:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

If you can find other free pictures of famous Koryo-saram, feel free to add them, but this picture should remain; the given source already mentions that he is considered to be Korean, and you haven't offered any source to contradict that notion. cab (talk) 00:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I can find official sources, however, they are in Russian, which would pose some problems, please explain to me how a person who is half Russian, half Korean, considered to be Korean? I knew Viktor personally, at the time I was only 5 years old, but he didn't know Korean, he was Russian culturally, the only thing Korean about him is the fact that his dad was Korean. Shogunpk (talk) 00:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not he speaks Korean isn't really relevent; plenty of Koryo-saram don't. A Russian language source is fine --- please post a link to it here. But the source should be reliable (as defined by Wikipedia guidelines) and it should explicitly say that he doesn't consider himself as Koryo-saram or that others don't consider him as such. Membership in an ethnic group doesn't require any such notion as 100% descent, it's defined by social circumstance and the attitude of the group itself. With some groups, the main defining criterion for membership is language, or religion, or shared social experience, and descent is less important. Many African Americans and Japanese Brazilians are of mixed descent, for example, but still identify as members of those two groups. cab (talk) 01:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

cab, I would like to state that this argument is in no hostile manner, futhermore I think there should be a third party who was never involved with this article(unbiased), to make a decision on this, thank you. Shogunpk (talk) 01:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Two other editors besides me re-added the picture, so this isn't just between me and you. If you want a fourth opinion, we can add it to the Wikipedia:Requests for comment queue, Wikipedia:WikiProject Korea, Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia, and other forums --- doesn't make much sense to do this until after you have given your source, though. I pasted the picture in question and my source at the top of this section so others can know what we're talking about. You can put your sources into that section as well. cab (talk) 02:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It is just between me and you, the other editors who readded the picture thought I was vandalizing, they didn't see the reason, I will post sources possibly later.Shogunpk (talk) 10:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• my opinion:
  he is known as korean
  and he the most famous of FSU koreans (any one despite of age or social rank heard about him)
  
  a soviet passport had a special place for writing ethnic group + any one who is not a Jew in soviet tradition gets the same ethic group as father
  => as his mother wasn't a Jew he got in the offical document the same ethning group as his father
  => which means that officially (and unoffically too as he foesn't look slavic), he is a korean not a russian (Idot (talk) 08:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC))

• It is obvious, Viktor Tsoi was a "Russian Korean" i.e. "Koryeo-saram". --RYUS (talk) 20:39, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

plural

what is the plural for 'Koryo-saram'? The Category:Koryo-saram should be plural, whatever the plural is, to match all similar categories. Hmains (talk) 23:39, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

ko:중앙아시아한국어 ja:高麗語 (コリョマル)

Article history

Note: This article was created on July 23, 2006, using material from the "Koreans in the former Soviet Union" paragraph of the Koreans article (then called "Korean people"). The historical "Korean people" article at the time of transfer is here. Olivier (talk) 03:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

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Requested move 1 September 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was:There was no consensus. No prejudice for a discussion in future. —usernamekiran(talk) 15:48, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

---

Koryo-saram → Koryo Saram – Sources of the paragraph "References" in this article marked the "Koryo Saram". (e.g. Kim, German Nikolaevich (2003), Names of Koryo Saram, Al-Farabi University, archived from the original on 30 October 2003, retrieved 26 March 2007 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)) Also, always the phrase "Koryo Saram" has a word spacing in Cyrillic and Korean language, like "Корё сарам" in Cyrillic and "고려 사람" in Korean language. Thanks. -- Garam (talk) 17:07, 1 September 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. DrStrauss talk 17:55, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose it certainly wouldn't be capitalized; koryo saram maybe, but not S. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:18, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
  • @In ictu oculi: "Koryo saram" also no problem. The source about "Koryo Saram", See the [8] on article. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 14:17, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Then no objection to Koryo saram. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:30, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Endonym during Soviet era and before?

The article states that "Koryo-saram ... is the name which ethnic Koreans in the post-Soviet states use to refer to themselves." Did these communities call themselves something else during Soviet times, or earlier? If the term was used back then, shouldn't the article use a term other than "post-Soviet states"? —Theodore Kloba (☎) 14:31, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

They now call themselves more often “Russian Koreans” Русские Корейцы 661,000 Корё сарам 223,000. Koryo Saram is their name in Soviet times. Since the use of the term that was used until 1917 was not approved. But now they have returned to the term that was before 1917. And they expanded it on the Sakhalin Koreans that they could not return to South Korea. They assimilated them in their environment. And assimilate 18,000 North Koreans. Their official name in South Korea is Korein. And in Northern Korea - Chosoni in Rusia. In general, they have the most open to the absorption of other Koreans self-identity. They have a bongwan system, but no generic books like in the South. And there is a genialism of the western type - where there are only archival confirmed ancestors and no mythical heroes. They have no discrimination bongwan - which is in South Korea. They form a new Bon for North Koreans who have lost their Bon based on his place of residence before coming to Russia.Hatchiko (talk) 23:19, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

References

Figures for Uzbekistan

I updated the statistics for Uzbekistan from 2001 to 2016, according to a statement from the government of Uzbekistan.

However, approximately 52,000 Koreans emigrated from Uzbekistan during this period to South Korea.

Also 18962 emigrated to Ukraine from Uzbekistan

And from all the countries of Central Asia, 64 thousand Koreans arrived in Russia.

If the statistics of other countries in the region, these movements are reflected. That in the statistics of Uzbekistan is not. Even assuming that at this time the number of Koreans grew at a rate of growth in the population of Uzbekistan (which is obviously not the case, since Koreans in Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan are discriminated against as Christians). Even then, the decline in the number of Koreans in Uzbekistan should be approximately 78,000.

If we take into account that the dictatorial regime rules in Uzbekistan and Korean investments are crucial for Uzbekistan - that is, there is every reason to believe that official statistics are distorted. That would not cause an international conflict. What happened when 6,000 Koreans were expelled from Tajikistan.

Therefore, the data I made. But you should not trust them.Hatchiko (talk) 23:32, 28 January 2019 (UTC)