Talk:Korean cuisine/Archive 1

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Jhampong

Hey, does anybody have any information on the dish called "Jhampong"? I used to eat it from the Korean stall at an Asian food court and it was not mentioned anywhere in the noodles section. Don't even know if it is truly authentic Korean food but I would guess that it is. --Indigest 22:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

It's sold in Korean version of Chinese restaurants and it's really a Korean variation of Chinese dish, so you're not going to find it in any true Chinese restaurants. I heard, but not verified, that it was developed by a Chinese national in Korea and that's why some Korean mistake it as Chinese dish, much like Americans think fortune cookie is Chinese cookie (but invented in California). If go to a Korean restaurant (not really authentic ones), there's a good chance that they have it. It's probabaly listed as Sam son jjamppong, more expensive version of jjampong. --Santaria360 07:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you talking about jjamppong? Otherwise I don't recognize the dish. YooChung 23:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

See my research on chao ma mian below on this talk page. It is the same thing. Kowloonese 01:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

240,000 South Korean Won

... is approx. 257.54 US dollars. I thought it might save someone five minutes. -MLE, the Pirate Bunny

Deletion of text

Badagnani, it's not a good idea to delete someone's contribution. If you don't like it you can redistribute or modify it. You're acting like you own this article.

To what are you referring? Badagnani 22:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Budae jjigae

Regarding the recent edit on Budae Jjigae, I agree with most all the edits. They're an improvement. But I doubt that ramen noodles were standard U.S. Army surplus during and soon after the Korean War, when budae jjigae was invented. Zenpickle 15:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Garlic consumption

I read in a book that Thailand is the second largest consumer, and that even the rest of Southeast Asia would put Greeks, Italians and Spaniards to shame. I'm the one that changes it69.22.13.111 02:21, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Photos

I've touched up the photos of the bibimbap, dolsot bibimbap, and samgyeopsal. I wanted to ask the original posters' permissions before uploading the new versions. Zenpickle 23:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Consumption of dog meat

This article about Koreans eating dog meat is really stupid. I am Korean and I do not know one person that is Korean and eats dog meat. Yes I will admit that there are a very rare few Koreans that like to eat this crap. I as a dog lover find this very sick. Its the same as some Americans eating squirrels and racoons, its rare. This article about eating dogs should not be here. And to the person who wrote this article are you really Korean? I truly believe you are not. I think you are some idiot just trying to bash Koreans, and If you are truly Korean you are an idiot for eating dogs and generalizing the whole Korean population with this crap and giving us a bad image. Gary

I deleted the section without discussion as I am new to wikipedia and still learning, so I apologize. I still propose the whole section to be removed because it doesn't belong in "korean food" or "korean cuisine" section. The topic of dog meat itself is controversial in Korea. I just came back from Korea and there were ads all over subway to fight eating of dog meat. Person that put section back say that it is "widely available" and "some people eat dog meat", but what is the definition of "widely available" or "some people"... To me, widely available is McDonalds in US. So, unless you can prove that dog meat restaurants are as prevalent in Korea as McDonalds in US, "widely available" is your opinion and "some people" is meaningless. You may live in Korea and there maybe two dog meat restaurants in your block, who knows. But that doesn't justify the wording of "widely available" of dog meat in whole Korea. When discussing "Korean Food", you are discussing the culture and life of Koreans and putting dog eating as a section of "Korean Food" gives wrong notion that it is "widely available" and "widely accepted". I am Korean and huge huge dog lover and I'm ashamed that there are Koreans out there that eat dogs, just as I'm sure there are Chinese that are ashamed some of their own eat cats, and Canadiens that are ashamed that there are Canadiens that do barbaric act of killing baby seals for living. The proposal is because dog meat is controversial and is not a representation of Korean culture like the other foods listed. It's only purpose is to draw more controversy and if cat and dog eating isn't in Chinese food section, or other nation's controversial practices aren't listed as "widely available", why is dog consumption listed in Korean food which represents the pride of Korean culture. If i can't just remove it, let me know what i'm suppose to do. If you want to talk about the controversy of dog meat, there's section on wikipedia dedictated to dog meat. --Santaria360 22:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

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Thank you for your thoughts on dog meat. I live in Korea, I eat dog meat, I've eaten it many times with people from work, I can find a place to eat dog meat in any city in Korea. I didn't say it wasn't controversial, I just stated that it is "widely available" and it is. I don't disagree that there is controversy related to this topic. I will take out widely accepted, but I am going to put back in widely available. I love dogs, I have had a pet dog since I was a child. If you have a problem with the consumption of dog food thats fine, it doesn't mean that you can fix the problem by covering it up. I do like how you listed that Canadians should be ashamed for killing baby seals, I agree, but that doesn't mean that we should pretend like it doesn't happen. I actually updated the section of wikipedia related to dog meat and South Korea because it was bias. Daesung 04:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I added some more info regarding the consumption of dog meat, in the form of statistics. I included the source for those that would like to view the information. The survey was done by a government body so I included it. Here is a link, I understand the article is in Korean but the info regarding statistics can be easily translated. Here is the reference [1] If this doesn't make for widely available I'm not sure what does.Daesung 05:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I never once mentioned anything remotely about hiding the fact that some Koreans eat dogs; in fact, the knowledge of it has increase pressure against it and controversy against the practice in korea for good. What i'm trying to say is that Korean food is a huge representation of Korean culture. If you are Korean like you say, you very well know that Korea has rich food culture that takes long time and effort to make and that certain regions brag about their special dishes, special variations, and that some restaurants are given mudunghwa as a symbol to put on their door to show that their are exceptional. Food represents region and it's people so much so that when Japanese wanted to give dolsot bibimbop it's native name, there was uprising of protest as we don't rename sushi, pizza, and spaghetti; Koreans felt Japanese had no right to rename a Korean tradition. With that said, Korean food is something that people of Korea are proud of because it's usually our first representation of our culture to outsiders and while dog eating does exist in Korea, it should not represent the rich korean food heritage as it is view as a shameful practice by many koreans and it's controversial throughout the world. Like i've said before, this isn't about hiding the fact that some Koreans eat dogs. I think it's already too widely known and made fun of for that to happen. What this is about is that Korean cuisine is representation of us and consumption of dog meat is controversial and shameful act that doesn't represent the united Koreans. It does not belong in this section, it belong in the dog meat section where people are free to critcize as much as they want. This page should be a representation of our culture and section about dog meat does not belong. --Santaria360 05:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

PS. Only a opinion of mine, but i think it's horrible you eat dogs. It's "widely available" to you because you and your friends seek it and not to me because i think it's despicable and don't desire it. Often people like you argue how come it's ok to eat cows and not dogs? Well, it's because a dog has been our partner and companion before the existence of civilization. Whether is justifiable or not, people unconciously rank animals based on intelligence and companionship and dogs through civilizations have been there to guard our homes and fight our battles. We've developed codependencey with them and we made them what they are from wolves. If people think it's ok to eat dogs just because it's widely accepted to eat cows, then why not gorillas? Or even humans that are 99% identitical to gorillas... --Santaria360 06:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with many of the things your saying. I think that the article should be breif and to the point. The only thing that I am trying to do is make the information available and accurate. I think Korean people should be very proud of their culture, including Korean food. We are allowed to have an opinion regarding the consumption of dog meat. I understand that you feel it is a shameful practice, and you have every right to feel that way, but that doesn't mean that your opinions represent "united Koreans". I have no problem leave this section being brief I just want it to be unbiased. Its nice to share your opinion but i don't think it belongs on this part of the board. I have a pet dog and I would never think of eat my pet dog, thats why its a pet dog. Thanks for sharing.Daesung 06:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Do me a favor and STOP TWISTING MY WORDS!!!! When did I say that my opinion is "united Koreans"? What i'm trying to say is that to you, dog meat is food, to me dog meat is a dead dog that needs to be buried, not food, so to me it doesn't make sense for dog meat to be part of "Korean cuisine" because I like many other Koreans don't consider it as food. That's why i was saying that by dog meat being there, it's DOESN'T represent united Koreans!!!--Santaria360 06:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

PS. Another thing. When you said, "We are allowed to have an opinion regarding the consumption of dog meat. " I completely agree, but it's a wrong place to do it and that's all i'm saying. Like i said before, dog meat isn't food to me, so why have your opinion here? Do it on dog meat section like where it belongs. --Santaria360 07:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

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<quote> However, part of the controversy stems from the methods of slaughter, one of which includes beating to death by clubs to ensure that the dog is filled with adrenaline, believed to increase the sexual stamina of the (usually male) eater. </quote>

I don't think every dog meat consumed in Korea is produced in that barbarian way. It takes too much to kill every dog by clubs. This sentence misleads the readers. Xaos

It's not misleading, because it says this is "one method", not that "every" slaughter is performed in this way. Also, the rest of the section is balanced. On the other hand, do we maybe want to make this discussion a separate page from the general Korean cuisine?

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As a person residing in Korea, I do have to say that dog soup is largely viewed as medicinal (believed to bring strength to withstand the hot summer and sexual stamina to men). Therefore, the method of beating the dogs to death with clubs is rather important, since the adrenaline produced by this type of death is the medicinal factor. The article is accurate as it is. I don't think it needs another section. It is just one facet of Korean cuisine. Sara Parks Ricker 15:33 Oct 9, 2002 (UTC)

I'm korean. You are quite right that dog meat is viewed as a medicine, but this false belief among Koreans stemed not from the fact that beating produces the adrenaline. But this belief is quite old, I guess, before the time when the term adrenaline wasn't yet invented. What I know (hear from people around me, Korean) as the reason for this cruelty, is that it should soften the meat. And people say it's good for health, because the protein structure (or tissue) of dog is similar to that of human, which also has no scientific evidence. These myths are probably based on chinese medicine, but not on the modern adrenaline thing. And I think most of the dogs consumed in Korea as food are slaughter by electric shock. It's already a business. Man takes cheaper and efficienter methods. --Xaos

• I changed "it is considered delicious by those who enjoy it" to "it is considered delicious by many people", since enjoying a food usually connotes thinking it delicious. --Zonath 10:30, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

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• I removed Switzerland as dog meat eaters -- I have lived here since ages, and have never heard of it, must be a nasty joke that we Swiss eat dog meat!! I don't mind what Koreans like to eat, their choice. But please, it is completely incorrect for Switzerland, except maybe some Koreans living here (but there is not even a Koreatown here). 83.77.80.215 23:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC) Nov 21, 2006

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Contrary to popular belief, most Koreans do not consume dog meat. Dog meat is also illegal in South Korea, but the law is not strictly enforced. Those who consume dog meat are usually older men with the belief that dog meat serves several medicinal purposes such as stamina enhancement. A common preparation of dog meat, bosintang (spicy stew with a particular breed of dog meat), is sought out by some diners as a special summer dish available at dog restaurants. Not all dogs are eaten. Only Nurong (누렁이), which are cross-breeds, are bred and sold at high prices for human consumption.

I would like to edit the first sentence, to say "Some Koreans" consume dog meat. There is no proof that most do not. In Korea dog meat is neither a common dish or an uncommon dish. Many people still eat dog meat, although less people in Seoul. It is still widely avaliable. "Old" men should be changed to "men" or "men over the age of 30". Also going to remove "medicinal" to read "several purposes". As noted earlier Stamina relates to sexual stamina and should be changed to reflect such.Daesung 02:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Why change it if you're really not sure? What about North Korea? One hears that it is eaten there as well, and there are millions of North Koreans. Badagnani 02:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to change it because it was misleading. I'm not sure about North Korea. If you have more information regarding North Korea feel free to add it. I just didn't feel that saying contrary to popular belief fairly or accurately showed the current state of South Korea. There are many people who eat dog meat, and many that do not. It is hard to say that most Koreans do not consume dog meat when it is widely available, almost every city including small ones.Daesung 08:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

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This section was deleted by someone so I added it back. Do not delete informatoin with out discussing it. Some people eat dog meat, so much so that it is widely available. If you do not support the practice that is your own choice. Daesung 01:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

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The section on dog meat needs editing. The best evidence is that it is a tradtional food. Wikipedia's entry for dog meat discusses archaelogical evidence for comsumption of dogs that is centuries old. I searched the Internet on the topic: every site saying it was not tradtional was an animal rights site; every site calling it traditional was an independent news source.

The defensive comment about why it is included needs to go: don't apologize for content in the content.

There are recent polls showing 35% of Koreans eat it regularly and 50% have tried it. It's obviously wrong that dog meat restaurants are not found in large cities, although they may be less common. The comment about whether it is crucial or preeminent is POV, as is the assertion of what explains the debate.Bsharvy 10:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Not finishing all food

It is customary not to finish all the food provided, in order to show that the eater has been thoroughly satisfied by the meal.

I'm not sure if it's correct. Where did the author get this information? I haven't tried to leave something. The side dishes remain usually, because it's not of just one person, people at the table eat them TOGETHER. But the rice is yours. You must finish your rice. When a person leave rice not eaten up, he(or she) may be regarded rude. If you think you can't eat your rice, you should start with less rice. --Xaos

I'm not the author, but this is also what my parents told me about Korea; they lived there for just a couple of years quite a while ago. Perhaps it's a more traditional custom, or varies by region?? I don't know. Wesley

I guess it's a cultural misunderstanding. In western food custom, everyone has his(her) own portion in his(her) dish. But in Korean table, only rice (which tastes nothing) and soup(guk) are given to each person, and the several dishes (side dishes) are arraged for EVERYONE. And also, there is other kind of soup called (jjigae, thicker than guk), and it's shared at the center of the table. Korean food custom isn't individualistic, though it's changing. And it's slightly different from that of japanese and chinese. And... we don't make a dish for each meal or each day. Soup should be eaten in a meal or two. But most of dishes are for more than one day. For example, there's Kimjang season, in which a large amount of kimchi for the entire winter is made. I think the stong taste of Korean food originated from the need of keeping them. --Xaos

Banchan's are made periodically because most of them are labor intensive and many different spices and flavorings go into them, so you make as much as you can and store them for the week, or even the month. These dishes are then shared with everybody at the table.

- Hi, I thought this was a weird phrase to read, too. Perhaps it should be re-worded to reflect the above dialogue. - Guppy 00:31, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Galbi

Galbi isn't always served on GAS burner. It varies with the restaurant you visit. --Xaos

And every restaurant here in the states Romanizes it as "Kal-bi" Bjason

Proposed move of dog meat info

I'd like to move the dog meat thing to Gaegogi controversy -- it has no place here. Comments? --Ed Poor 21:12 Oct 9, 2002 (UTC)

I agree that it's not so appropriate in this page. But at the same time, I don't like to make it bigger. Hm... What should I do... I'll wait for others' opinion. --Xaos

Just make the article title Gaegogi: controversial information will be presented factually, possibly under a sub-heading on that page.

Started a stub. If people don't like it, fix it.

Eating dog meat is frawned upon by the younger Korean generation and is not a common practice like many seem to believe. Consumption of dog meat does not belong in the "Korean Food" catagory because it implies that dog meat is part of normal "Korean food". I understand it as a controversy as a person that loves dogs, but i don't get why that was put in as it's own content section other than to draw more controversy. Some Chinese eat cats and i've read eating dogs is more common practice in China than Korea, yet that's not listed under the "Chinese Food" section. --Brandon

If you don't believe it belongs in its own section then please suggest where it should be placed. The consumption of dog meat may be uncommon for young people but not all Koreans are young and the food is still available in many restaurants, and an undeniable part of Korean cuisine. The repeated wholesale blanking (purging) of the section does not improve the article's educational value. Badagnani 21:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I propose it being under dog meat section which already exist in Wikipedia. I don't see how you can claim it as a undeniable part of Korean cuisine. --Santaria360 22:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you claiming dog meat was not (and does not continue to be) part of Korean cuisine? That is an untenable statement that likely comes from your own personal point of view, that you would prefer Koreans not to do this. But many of them did, and do. The French cuisine article mentions their consumption of horse meat and so should the Korean cuisine article mention the consumption of dog meat. People are interested in this subject, so we should make the information available to readers. I am sure that it is made clear in the paragraph that such consumption is relatively uncommon in the present day. Badagnani 22:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I sense ulterior motive in you wanting this in the article? Have you been to Korea? I sense you probably have, maybe working as an English teach and probably had bad experience there, i could be wrong... When did I say in my statements at all that no Koreans eat dog meat?? I even said that i was ashamed some do... The problem with this that it is a controversial topic even in Korea and there are numerous posters and websites dedictated to ending the practice. You say people are interested in this subject and so you should make the information available, yet the information is already available in the dog meat section (pretty detailed information)... You mention that under the French cuisine it mentions horse meat. Yes, there is one line: "Horse meat is available from special butcher stores, but few people consume it." not a whole section. Plus eating horse isn't frawned upon as much and it's even done in US. The problem with the comparison is that dogs are common pet that people often have and we all had interactions with it. People respect dogs for their personality, intelligence, and their ability to bond with humans. In US alone, over 50% of household have either cat or a dog as a pet. On the other hand, horses aren't as widely known to many people. If you think is absurd for me to say that ranking certain animals as more accepted to eat then others, all i have to say is dog and cow... The thing is, we as people value companionship and intelligence the most in animals and that's why there are protests again dog eating, whale hunting, and dolphin killings... You say many Koreans do eat dogs and like i said before, what is many? Do you have certain number or percentage? I'm korean and i do not know any other Koreans that had dog meat and I've been to Korea many times and only saw dog restaurant once in a backstreet with no signs. Like i've said before Korean food is huge part of Korean culture and to include such a controversial topic you don't understand to make it seem it's "widely available" is offensive. i have no problem of removing horse meat from French cuisine, but i do have problem with controversial dog meat listed as korean food when cat eating isn't listed in chinese food or dolphine and whale in Japanese food. This doesn't belong. You say it's for education, well there's a section for it, so take your hate for Koreans somewhere else. --Santaria360 03:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Santaria360 (talk • contribs) 03:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

You should be very careful about "guessing" the backgrounds, intents, or "ulterior motives" of other editors. Since you must know, I have never been to Korea but eat Korean food often in the United States, have many Korean friends, and am an ethnomusicologist who has for nearly 15 years studied traditional Korean music, primarily ancient genres such as aak and Munmyo jeryeak. If I disliked Korean culture, as you say (quite offensively, I might add) I doubt I would have made the thousands of edits I have, and created many articles on Korean foods and musical instruments (look through the page histories and you will see this). I am also a vegan. As is our practice here, I do not allow my personal views of subjects to influence my manner of discussion of these subjects in the Wikipedia articles I edit. Badagnani 03:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

You have never been to korea yet you claim to know that "many" consume dogs in Korea and it's "widely available"?? You just lost all credibility right there because what you know is from hearsay. Is that what you do as a ethnomusicologist, just go by what other people say? You eat Korean food often and i guess that makes you an expert on dog eating huh? How many of those korean restaurants you went to served dogs? You have many Korean friends? What is many and how many of them offered you dog or eat dogs themselves? Do you have enough korean friend sample size for your "widely available" theory to be statistically relevent? You are right, i should be careful about "guessing background" and really my intent was to find out what you really know about Korean dog eating habits, which turns out to be nothing. Really just tell me one good reason this section belongs when other controversial foods for other countries is left out? --Santaria360 03:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Your paragraph above comes across as very angry. The fact that I disagree with you that discussion of dog meat should be eliminated (censored) from the Korean cuisine article does not give you license to denigrate me as an editor and as a person. Further, you did not apologize for claiming that I "hate" Korean culture. Further, you are insulting my integrity as an editor. I don't believe I can continue to discuss with you until you are able to calm down and discuss in a cool manner. Please try to have a cup of tea and we will talk when you are able to discuss in a less confrontational manner. Badagnani 04:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I am calm and cool as ice. You are dodging the question why it's ok for dog eating should be left in for Korean Cuisine section while other nation's controversial eating habits are left out. Since you are dodging these questions and i cannot confirm the fact of what you claim to be, i can only assume (which you've done all through the argument) that you hate Korean culture unless you can prove and give me a valid reason otherwise. And don't give me this education crap because there is section for dog meat and people also should be educated then on other countries, especially since whales and dolphins are endangered. --Santaria360 04:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Koreans also live in North Korea, which I assume you haven't visited, and also in other parts of Asia, and the world. Further, you weren't looking for dog meat when you visited South Korea. If you wanted it, as many Korean people do, you'd know where to get it. Many of those people who consume it do so because they believe it is good for their health. They don't consider the dogs used for dog meat as "cute" dogs like household ones, thus this dissociation allows many otherwise nice and friendly people to eat it (as they aren't part of the slaughtering process and don't see this process). Standards of ethics and belief change over time and perhaps in the past people didn't have the same thinking about dogs in Korea as today. Badagnani 03:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Every one of the thing you said above is all assumption and you still haven't answered the fact of why it must be in the article when other controversial food in other countries isn't. Don't be an idiot and say "Koreans also live in North Korea, which I assume you haven't visited"... You haven't been there either and the food listed for Korean cuisine is traditionally S.Korean food. Everything you know is from hearsay, which when people talk about dog eating, it's mentioned as a negative connotation. The reason I'm so offended with this is that people like you, or at least people that told you about dog eating make it sound like it's widely available and accepted. Well, it's not. It's controversial. I grew up all my life with dogs and I love dogs more than some people and i'm offended, like many korean dog lovers, because whenever the word Korean and dog is brought up, people largely assume, they meant for consumption. You have to admit that dog consumption is viewed negatively by rest of the world and that's why in korea there are movements to stop the practice and improve the image of koreans, yet people like you are the problem because you have no idea what you are talking about and you repeat to others that "widely available" is a fact just because you heard it somewhere. This section is offensive because dog eating is controversial topic, not a Korean culture that people are proud of like rest of the food mentioned. --Santaria360 04:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I am making an exception from what I said before (as you seem not to have moderated your tone, something you do still need to do) because what you say does need to be corrected. We have not all been to every country in the world, but even people who live in a particular country do not know everything about that country, and in fact foreigners who study a particular aspect of that country may know more than the person who lives there. I have found this in regard to particular Asian cuisines; good research by foreign Wikipedia editors can uncover information that even editors within the country didn't know. That is because we use *sources*. Valid, reliable *sources* are what we base our work on. We try not to use hearsay. In the case of reliable sources, such as those written by scholars or journalists, they didn't just "hear," then "say," but in fact did serious research, then wrote what they found. In the case of the consumption of dog meat in Korean culture, the BBC has written an article which appears here. This article is not hearsay, because the BBC is considered one of the most trusted sources in world media. It contains facts and figures which you have not . In fact, your own "evidence" consists of hearsay ("I've been to Korea and haven't seen much bosintang for sale"; "I know a lot of Koreans and they claim they don't eat it," "I love dogs and would never eat one, and hope other Koreans don't do it either," etc.). Again, I ask that your personal point of view not dictate the content of any article. We try not to let that influence our work here. Dog meat is eaten in North Korea (do you deny this?), as I believe the sources will show. Please look at the article above and address the points it discusses. If you will not do so, and continue to insist (also without sources) that the consumption of dog meat is extremely rare among Koreans in South Korea and elsewhere, I will assume that you are editing out of emotion and not based on sources. Badagnani 04:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Like I've said for many times, i've never denied the fact that Koreans ate and eat dogs, which is basically what the article from 8 years ago is saying. So, why are you keep trying to tell me what i already know? The pictures and captions in article actually further prove my point that eating dogs is controversial in Korea and "dog meat is not a traditional Korean food, rather it became part of the diet at a time when Koreans had no other choice." Like I said many times, Korean food is huge part of Korean culture and dog meat is not a tradition that belongs with bibimbop or jopche. Now more than ever in Korea, dog eating is more controversial. The visible fight against the practice isn't something i saw when i was in Korea in 1999. So, I ask same thing to you that i've been asking since the beginning... When dog eating is something that a minority does that is controversial, why should this be listed with other traditional food when other countries' , notably china and japan, controversial eating habits aren't mentioned? If you don't "hate" like you say, you must have a good reason for defending it.

PS. The article itself isn't without the skewed perception that many try to paint. "Statistics show that dog is the fourth most popular meat in South Korea after pork, beef and chicken. " Well, considering they are not presenting seafood as "meat", I'm sure most countries have weird "fourth most popular meat" after pork, beef, and chicken (there are really no sheeps in Korea). --Santaria360 04:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Romanization

Why did everything here get changed into the MC-R romanization??

I've dropped the changer a note at User talk:220.73.165.239 2 days ago, but he's been unresponsive. The changer here is ID'ed as User talk:218.145.25.44, but it's probably the same person. --Menchi 05:56, Aug 8, 2003 (UTC)

Broken Link

I don't know if there is an established format for marking a link as broken in Wikipedia so I'm just commenting, hoping that somebody else will fix it. The last link in the 'External Links' section "90+ Korean Foods" is a broken link. 203.235.21.206seaniz

"natural"?

"Not to be neglected is the wonderful elegance of the Korean tea ceremony which is older, and more natural than the Japanese tea ceremony more familiarly known to the west."

"More natural?" Sounds a bit POV to me.

question: jol myeon

hi. i have a question about the sauce used for jol myeon (a chili-sauced cold noodle which i've only eaten vegetarian):

is the sauce simply a variation on gochujang (고추장)? is there a standard recipe for this variation (i.e. do variations of this sauce simply add a particular ingredient to gochujang)? also does this have a specific name? and do families usually buy the sauce ready-made or do they prepare it at home?

a further question is how does this sauce differ from the bibimbap condiment?

all answers with be greatly appreciated? thank you very much – ishwar  (speak) 02:36, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Although I don't know the answer to this question exactly, I can give a rough guess. The sauce used in jolmyeon is technically a type of gochujang, since gochujang just means 'hot pepper paste', although typically, it is meant to refer to the type of thick hot pepper paste that is sold commonly in stores. Again, although I don't know exactly for sure, I would hazard a guess that the gochujang used in Jolmyeon has less of a glutinous rice content and more additives such as vinegar and/or sugar. Since the taste seems to vary widely between the different places you can go to get jolmyeon, I would guess that there isn't one standard recipe for the sauce - the jolmyeon at some restaurants has more of a savory taste, where at others, it may be sweeter, or more sour. The condiment used in bibimbap is closer to the stuff you buy in the stores -- the standard, glutinous rice + chili pepper mix, although in bibimbap, as well, there is a bit of variation. Jolmyeon sauce can be bought ready-made at the store, if I recall correctly. Zonath 04:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

gochujang is just one of the basic ingredients. of course there are many variations, but it is the same mixture as the sauce for bibim nangmyun, with a little more vinegar. basic ingredients: gochujang, sesame oil, gochugaru (pepper powder), soy sauce, mulyeot (starch syrup? corn syrup?), sugar, and vinegar, with garlic and sesame seeds. these are pretty common ingredients in korean cooking, so i'd say it's still mostly made at home, but you can buy it. good luck :-)Appleby 17:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

hi. i thank you both for your replies. peace – ishwar  (speak) 02:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Bibimbap photo

• a comment regarding bibimbap picture: the food looks great, but the bowls and plates look conspicuous, they look more like from Argos catalog shop rather than traditional korean plates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.42.191 (talk • contribs) 01:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Cookbookwiki External Link?

What happen to the Cookbookwiki External link?

Some user called Linkspammer or something has been going around removing these resources! I think this is equivalent to vandalism! Why remove one external link for spam and keep others when that link was one of the most useful ones! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.232.103.1 (talk • contribs) .

Sure. As you and I have discussed elsewhere, Cookbookwiki is an external link being spammed by you across Wikipedia. The Wikimedia equivalent is Wikibooks. Shall we keep this type of discussion to the relevant pages? -- Linkspamremover 17:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

found book with garlic info

Asian Ingredients.

whatever

forget it. i don't want an edit war.

Dog

Please merge the two dog meat sections. It doesn't make sense to have two sections on the same subject. Badagnani 04:22, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

ok, how about a compromise?

read the article now.

chao ma mian

When I looked up 炒碼麵 (chao ma mian) in Google, I found many pages that say it is a famous Hunan dish. However, I was told by more than one Mandarin Chinese restaurants that "Chao ma mian" is a Korean dish. I even saw a sign in a Chinese restaurant which wrote Korean Hangu characters (삼선짬뽕 or 초마면) next to the Chinese menu. I assume there are two dishes with the same name. Can someone who know the history of this dish comment on where it comes from? Thank in advance. Kowloonese 20:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

according to a quick search in korean, the word 짬뽕 derives from the japanese ちゃんぽん, but refers to the same dish as the chinese 초마면, except that the chinese version is not as spicy (or reddish). there have been some suggestions to de-japanize the name, such as by using 초마면, but 짬뽕 has been too firmly established. Appleby 20:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you know the pronunciation and literal meaning of these two terms in Korean? I am curious if the Chinese name "chao ma" is phonetic transliteration from the Japanese or Korean name. I have not seen the Hunan style chao ma mian, but those chao ma mian from Mandarin cuisine is spicy hot with a reddish broth. The main ingredients are noodle, beef, seafood, cabbage, a lot of garlic, (tomato??). The red color in the broth doesn't seem to come from chili peppers because the redness is usually not proportional to the spiciness which often varies from restaurant to restaurant. The spiciness depends on how many hot chili peppers they put in the broth. My favorite restaurants put in about 5 to 8 super hot chili peppers which I must pick out to avoid accidental ingestion. I wonder if the red color comes from tomato? I don't have the receipe, but apparantly, the ingredients are stirred fried with the chili peppers before making them into a broth for the noodle. If the stir-frying step is the signature of this dish, then the name "chao ma" which lit. means "stirred fried ingredients" is very likely from Chinese origin. Despite what I was told by the waiters, it is actually a Chinese dish exported to Korean instead of the opposite. How is my description above compared to the Korean or Hunan version of the same dish? Kowloonese 00:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Based on the descriptions I found on google, the chao ma mian from Shandong (山東炒碼麵) is not quite the same as the Hunan version. On the other hand, since Shandong and Korea are so close, I bet these two versions are very closely related. Kowloonese 01:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I did some search and taste tests myself. The Champon from the RingerHut Japanese chain restaurant, and the Zam Pong from the Za Zang Korean chain restaurant are almost identical to the shandong chao ma mian. The soup base is the same, red tomato colored, there are slight changes in ingredients. For example, the Ringerhut's Cham pon has the least toppings. The Zam Pong has more squids and added a clam but with no beef. The Chao Ma Mian has no clam but added beef and shitashi mushroom and napa cabbage. Surprisingly the shandong version is much much spicier than the Korean version. I have not had chance to try the Hunan style Chao Ma Mian, but based on description on the internet, it is not the same as Zam Pong. Kowloonese 21:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Most of the Chinese immigrants to Korea are from Shandong. There's your connection right there.

Etiquette

sujeo also means spoon in Korean and does not refer to a set of eating utensils with chopsticks. sutgarrak also means spoon. jeobunandjutgarrakboth mean chopsticks. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.17.89 (talk • contribs)

Appleby, why does the Sujeo article say: "Upon occasion the spoon apart from chopsticks is referred to as sujeo."? Badagnani 11:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The sujeo article is incorrect. sujeo means spoon and jyubun means chopsticks. It is not the case that "upon occassion the spoon apart from the chopsticks is referred to as sujeo", suejo means spoon. A set of eating utensils with a spoon and chopsticks is not called suejeo --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.17.89 (talk • contribs)

occasionally, sujeo is used to refer to spoon only. this resulted from some people's sense that hanja words were more "high class" than native korean words like "sutgarak". however, this use was an elitist minority, sutgarak is by far the most common word for spoon, & you can see from dictionaries that sutgarak=spoon & spoon=sutgarak. Appleby 14:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

These "some people", to be sure "an elitist minority" (as are almost all landed gentry/aristocracy), were yangbans who studied hanja. Yangbans lost power, the common people gained power and became middle-class. There was a shift in language use for a lot of reasons I'll go into more depth at a later time. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.17.89 (talk • contribs)

It seems that this information should be added in all the relevant places so that all of this reversion that has been going on (probably through this misunderstanding, by young Koreans who don't know much about etymology or hanja) won't continue to occur. Badagnani 14:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Revision/reversion is going on by an old Korean. Who knows about the etymology and who's older relatives know hanja well enough to have published books in it. I'm rewriting the wiki entry in a month. edited to add: I'll submit it for approval. Sorry, didn't realize how obnoxious that sounded when I first wrote it. Whooops!--—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.17.89 (talk • contribs)

• If the info you add is good (and verifiable) I don't think anyone will object. We work by consensus and if the information seems valid to everyone, then it will be treated as such.  :) Badagnani 17:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid what you say doesn't make sense, 66.215.17.89. You spell "sujeo" several different ways (including "suejo") and what you say contradicts with what Appleby has found in his/her dictionary regarding the original meaning of the word. Unless you can explain this, I'm afraid your argument isn't verifiable--the test here at Wikipedia. Badagnani 11:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

From the Sujeo article: "The word is a contraction of the word sudgarak (spoon) and jeotgarak (chopsticks)." Badagnani 11:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Apologies for the inconsistent and sloppy transliterations. I'll post following standard transliterations and check for typos. I'll also post how it is written in hanja. The word may indeed be a contraction, but that does not mean they refer to a set of "chopsticks and a spoon" in usage. I'm not a contentious person, rather a little wary of some of the etiquette and other comments here based on "what I saw my Korean friends do". Anyway, I'll post references in about a month. I need a little time to get the references together. Peace. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.17.89 (talk • contribs)

Added bit about sujeo being used instead of sutgarak. Some people are even unaware that sujeo can refer to "spoon an chopsticks" and use sujeo as a synonym of sutgarak. --Kjoonlee 04:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The etiquette section seems rather speculative and subjective. The string of etiquette points towards the end of the paragraph are exceedingly specific, and the tempo of the whole paragraph feels as though it is inspired by personal conviction. I suggest a pragmatic revision: perhaps the author could just pick the top three or four points or Korean table manners and remove the verbose portions?Eastcoastremedy 19:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Romanization question

Is it "sutgarak" or "sudgarak" in RR? There seem to be some rules for final "g" and "d" in RR and I basically want to know about the romanization of this syllable: 숟. Badagnani 17:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

"Sud" would be the 'official' romanization of it. Yet a lot still depends on how it's said, as you know. Zenpickle 02:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

No. 숟가락's normal transcription by the Ministry of Culture and Tourism's rules of 2000 would be sutgarak (sut and garak when written individually). There are no words ending in -g (except -ng), -d, -b or -j, except in MCT 2000 transliteration, which I have never ever seen used and which would read sudgalag (sud and galag individually). Wikipeditor 11:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Number of banchan

Actually, there is a name for the number of banchan set in a meal. I mean that the meal setting is called something like "Three-banchan meal" in Hanja. I don't remember it right now, and it's pretty archaic, but I do remember hearing it a few times. It traditionally goes 3-, 5-, by odd numbers, except the largest number (royal?) is 12-banchan setting. Or something sort of like that. Dollarfifty 23:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

it's called 삼첩반상, 오첩반상, 칠첩반상, 구첩반상 (samcheop bansang, etc). 9-banchan table is supposed to the royal meal, afaik. Appleby 02:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

자장면 or 짜장면

Is it spelled 자장면 or 짜장면? Badagnani 05:12, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It's 짜장면. Zenpickle 00:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain why it appears in huge numbers of hits in both spellings, on Korean websites? Does it have something to do with an etymology that allows for both spellings? A more detailed explanation of how it came to be that both spellings are widely used would be very good to have. Badagnani 00:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a Koreanized bastardization of the original Chinese word for a similar black bean sauce dish. I get flyers on my door every day from restaurants selling 짜장면. The reason for the different spellings on the internet may be the same reason some people spell "traveler" and "traveller," "judgment" and "judgement."Zenpickle 02:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

it used to be 짜, but was officially standardized to 자. everyone still pronounces it 짜, though, except news anchors, who try to pronounce it closer to the official 자, & sound very awkward doing it. as an aside, korean language standards are prescriptive rather than descriptive; the gov't officially determines what is correct & incorrect, unlike the more descriptive standards of the u.s. Appleby 04:20, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this very helpful information. Badagnani 05:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Bosintang

Someone just added bosintang (under a new spelling). But it was already there in the "Consumption of dog meat" section. Is it a common enough dish to warrant being listed twice? Badagnani 01:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Redundant. Never seen that spelling before. Zenpickle 02:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Insamju (Ginseng Liquor)

I don't want to add more to the article without getting some more input. My girlfriend, whose job involves taking Japanese tourists shopping through the markets, tells me that insamju is basically ginseng marinated in soju. She learned this from the ginseng dealers she gets commissions from. Anyone else can verify? Zenpickle 16:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Probably. You can probably add more about these things at Korean wine instead of here. Badagnani 16:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

yup, that's what it is. usually aged 6 mo to a year. verified by korean dictionaries & encyclopedias. Appleby 17:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

soondae

a recipe for soondae i found in a korean cookbook stuffed squid with a meat mixture. they called it in english "seafood "sausage"".

can anyone confirm this or the chitterling sausage you claim it to be? --Andrewb1 20:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

A pretty good description of soondae shows up in the black pudding article, interestingly enough. Most of the soondae I've ever seen is of the blood sausage/black pudding variety, although I believe that the word soondae can also refer to other sausage-like concoctions, such as stuffed squid. I'm actually going to redirect the link to the black pudding article until someone makes up a better one, considering it's more or less the same thing. --Zonath 22:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Soondae is a great dish very similiar to black pudding. But it has a bit of spice (not heat, spice) to it. It consists of noodles, cow blood, minced garlic, and finely chopped onions, which are then cooked in sausage casing. It is served sliced, and you eat it by dipping it in a dry mixture of salt and cayenne pepper.

Garlic clarification

Re: the citation of "Asian Ingredients" as the book for the garlic info, the Library of Congress lists 2 books by that title - one by Bruce Cost, the other by Ken Hom. Anybody know which one it is? I found plenty of info on garlic production (Korea is #2 behind China), but very little on consumption. I'm gonna stick the sentence with a {{Fact}} tag until we can sort it out. Jjacobsmeyer 00:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I have gone so far as to contact USDA agricultural representatives, various university agricultural science institutes in California, and even the coordinator of the Gilroy Garlic Festival, and although there are statistics on U.S. (and Chinese) garlic production there seems to be nothing available about consumption in the U.S. or any other nation. It's maddening because I don't know where that information originally came from. Let's keep looking. Badagnani 01:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

please do so. it's in bruce's book under "garlic", page 30, second and following sentences. Andrewb1 00:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the confirmation, Andrew. I was finally able to get the book from the library (surprisingly popular), but you beat me to it. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjacobsmeyer (talk • contribs)

Looks pretty good to me...

Much of Korean cuisine consists of simple dishes such as preserved food. Although many of these dishes are visually unenticing, Korean cuisine is known for its strong and pungent flavors. POV?

Yes it is pungent, but Korean food does not make people fat while american food makes people very veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery fat. More importantly, American generally have a disease that the large intestine goes rotten or obstruction of the intestines, but Korean do not have that kinds of diease. It is because of the foods.

Did somebody get rid of that? (Wikimachine 23:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

Are you unable to read bold type? I was calling attention to the part about the dishes being visually unenticing as pure opinion. The rest of the sentence is fine, I was just trying to provide context. Your opinion of American eaating habits is completely irrelevant. Excuse me, while I beat my head against something.

Someone should get rid of that "visually unenticing" opinionated statement. How long has that been up there? Zenpickle 14:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I call "dung of beefs."

"intestines of porks?" waaaay awkward.

it is disgutsting to you. isnt it...^^. Dung must be washed very clean with cleaner ^^

I was referring to the awkard grammar "intestines of porks" = "pig intestines," and and calling bullshit, or "dung of beefs." Do try to keep up. --BJason 08:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Badagnani, referring to your question about gobchang, I regularly see the words 소곱창 on gobchang restaurants. It leads me to conclude that gobchang is just a culinary word for intestines, and dishes are made with either beef or pork intestines. So why don't we just edit it to read "beef or pork intestines" in the article? Zenpickle 15:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Tang Soo-yook

Please consider adding Tang Soo-yook to this page. I'm sure many of you have had it. It's basically a koreanized version of sweet and sour pork. http://www.trifood.com/tangsuyuk.html It is different from what you get at chinese takeout, as the taste is more mild, and doesn't actually use sweet and sour sauce, it's based on apples. It's milder, and less salty, the resulting flavor is much more sweet than sour, and isn't very salty in comparision. Another difference is that the sauce is put on right before serving (if you get it in a restaurant) or comes in a separate bowl (if you get it delivered) thus preserving the crunchiness and texture of the deep fried pork. Since the vegetables aren't given time to marinate in the sauce, they taste much more vegetable-y and less like something to eat with the sauce as seems to be the case with most chinese versions. Anyways since it's a popular option for delivery in korea along with jjajangmyun, I thought it would be a nice addition.

72.66.207.4 14:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If Jajangmyeon is in the article, I don't see why Tangsuyuk couldn't be added too. Zenpickle 12:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

List of Korean surnames nominated for deletion

Vote here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Korean family names (2nd nomination). Badagnani 05:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Microbreweries

I live in Ansan and have neer seen nor heard of these:

1. Jung-ang Micro Brewery (in Ansan)
2. German Brauhaus (in Ansan)

I think they must be out of business. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bsharvy (talk • contribs) 12:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

It is/was near Jungang Station. I have a feeling they're gone, though. Zenpickle 01:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Introduction?

I find the introductory paragraph of this article confusing. It first suggests that the "royal cuisine" is not really a part of korean cuisine, but then goes off tangentially, mentioning the price of meals and the tv show? Maybe this royal cuisine could be incorporated into another section, rather than partially delving into it in the broader introduction to Korean cuisine.
Also, the article has many comments which seem like subjective opinions, such as korean snacks being an important part of the social culture, or the warm feeling given by the filling of ho-ddeuk. I think that the article could use an overall brushing up in terms of tone and organization. --SorryDoll 23:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)