Talk:Korean People's Association in Manchuria

Possible hoax?

One of the oddest things about this article is the claim that the Chinese Soviet republic somehow attacked the anarchists from the north while they were being encircled in southern china... How is this contradiction explained ? Myuuri (talk) 11:22, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Strategy? DefendingFree (talk) 19:08, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Scentary

Thus, the territory functioned as an scentary for anarcho-communist groups throughout Manchuria.

Whatever is a " scentary"? Marnanel (talk) 13:29, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Transcribing from wikiproject anarchism

I am transcribing the following creation request from wp:(A). This was first requested in 2009, and it looks like this article was created in 2017, satisfying the request.

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• Autonomous Shinmin region - mentioned in several Wikipedia articles but always without a source. If it actually lasted 3 years and included 2 million participants, it is of enormous historical importance to anarchism.
  • The Korean anarchist Movement - a speech given by Alan MacSimoin in 1991
  • http://www. oocities.com/ringfingers/nonwesternweb.html Non Western Anarchisms] - an essay on non-western anarchist history, it mentions the Shinmin province, but it seems to be drawing on the MacSimoin talk.
  • Kim Joa-jin (1889–1930) by O. H. Jang-Whan
    • Found in The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest, edited by Immanuel Ness.
  • Post Colonial Anarchism by Roger White (.html version of a .pdf)
  • Also, look up articles not about the Korean anarchists, but about contemporary Korean leftist leaders, as the general political climate for them was the same as for the anarchists, and there was some intersection in their history with the Korean Anarchist Federation in China (KAFC, est. 1924) For example, the exiled Korean government was located in Shanghai, where a large population of Korean anarchists operated. This relationship was fictionalized in the film Anarchists.
  • Request assistance from WikiProject Korea for possible translation of Korean wiki articles and original sources. South Korea has recently (relatively speaking) been going through a process of recuperating anarchists as "nationalist heroes", including Kim Jwa-Jin. Some information may be available from mainstream sources.

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Jlevi (talk) 23:42, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Hey @Jlevi, I've expanded this article a fair amount since you posted this. Do you know of any more sources than the ones you posted here? Because I've exhausted all the sources I have on the subject and am wondering if there are any more that I could add. Grnrchst (talk) 20:53, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Government type

There is likely a severe misunderstanding on what a "cooperative" is. Wikipedia defines it as the following:

"an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly owned and democratically-controlled enterprise."

The key word here is "enterprise". For something to be considered a coop (e.g. worker cooperative) it must be a business, or at the very least a national economic organization. The KPAM does not meet any of these requirements.

Instead I suggest labeling the KPAM as an "autonomous stateless society", which I believe fits them very well. Alternatively I would label them as an "autonomous self-governing society", but based on what I know about them they seem to fit the former much better. Regardless it isn't a coop. Humanwaveattack666 (talk) 15:41, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

What's severely being misunderstood here is Wikipedia's policy on no original research. I don't see you bringing any reliable sources to the table, only your own personal opinions about what you think the KPAM should be defined as. The fact of the matter is that the KPAM defined itself as an "autonomous, self-governing cooperative organisation". None of the sources refer to it as a "stateless society", many don't even use the term. If you think its description is wrong, then cite some reliable sources that you think describe it better, maybe then we can build a consensus on the matter. -- Grnrchst (talk) 15:57, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

So our only source is what the KPAM describes itself as? Not only is it grossly inaccurate, but even assuming that the KPAM referred to itself as a cooperative and not a cooperative organization, that's still equivalent to calling North Korea a democratic republic because it refers to itself as such. I'd suggest you provide actual research regarding the KPAM and not merely a "self-description". Humanwaveattack666 (talk) 16:00, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Looking through three of the sources (https://files.libcom.org/files/Gelderloos%20-%20Anarchy%20Works.pdf, https://files.libcom.org/files/Anarchism1870_1940.pdf, and https://files.libcom.org/files/Anarchism%20in%20Korea_%20Independenc%20-%20Dongyoun%20Hwang.pdf) I notice that only one uses the term "cooperative", and uses it to refer to collaboration (“cooperative [hyeopryeok] organization on the basis of economic communities,”) and not an actual cooperative organization. I will read through the rest of these to check for mentions. Humanwaveattack666 (talk) 16:09, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

How would you define a "cooperative organization" then? Upon reading the source, I had assumed it was referring literally to a cooperative organization, but you seem to think otherwise. Grnrchst (talk) 16:18, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

A "cooperative organization" is a society (organization in this context) that involves significant collaboration between people. Simple. Again, was the KPAM a business? Humanwaveattack666 (talk) 16:20, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I never said it was a business, I was merely disputing you adding original research to the article. Would you feel better if we asked for a third opinion? Grnrchst (talk) 16:24, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

A cooperative is by definition a business (just read the damning Wikipedia page), linking to it is frankly ridiculous.

But sure, we can ask for a third opinion (while continuing the discussion, of course). Humanwaveattack666 (talk) 16:41, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I've asked for a third opinion and, for now, I've replaced the linked "cooperative" with an unlinked "cooperative organization".

I'll note that while Hwang 2016, p. 51 translates it as "an autonomous, self-ruling, cooperative organization", MacSimoin 2002, p. 5 translates it as "an independent self-governing cooperative system". Ideally we'd have text from the original Korean version, but I'm unable to read or translate from Korean. -- Grnrchst (talk) 17:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Alright, that is fine.

Note that neither a cooperative organization nor a cooperative system implies a coop, but for now I will wait for the third opinion. Humanwaveattack666 (talk) 17:40, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the triple reply, but I've looked through all of the sources and find no relevant mentions of the KPAM being a cooperative. My point stands. Humanwaveattack666 (talk) 16:12, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Third Opinion

A Third Opinion has been requested. It appears that the question is whether the KPAM can be described as a cooperative. My opinion is that it can be described as having described itself as "cooperative", but that the term 'cooperative' should not be used except in a direct translated quote. My reasons for saying that are that commonly used terminology does not characterize it well. It was a sort of experiment that may not fit into any well-defined category of political history. If "cooperative" is part of an attributed translation, that word can be used (and is used in the article) as part of a phrase. But in normal English use, 'cooperative' has connotations that do not apply. Because this was a large-scale political experiment, the use of terms with well-understood meanings should be avoided or done carefully. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:37, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

No additional sources

Replying to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anarchism#Strandzha and Manchuria, I didn't see any Library of Congress or WorldCat subject headings for this topic, just about the independence movement and mainly in Korean.[1] This said, the article's currently sourcing looks fairly robust to me. czar 20:52, 25 July 2023 (UTC)