Talk:Kokkola-Pietarsaari Airport

Name

Fail: the airport itself uses Kruunupyy Airport everywhere [1]. On a more serious note, it is a fundamental question: Should Diocese of Borgå be moved to Diocese of Porvoo because the city has a Finnish-speaking majority, although the diocese itself uses primarily the Swedish name? --Pudeo⺮ 13:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

This has seemed to come up again. Whilst it is true that Finavia's English website markets the airport according to its Finnish name (i.e. Kruunupyy airport), that doesn't change the reality that the airport is located in Kronoby - which is a majority Swedish municipality. The marketing name on Finavia's customer website and the official name of the airport are not necessarily the same thing. At the airport itself, all signage is in the order 'Swedish-Finnish-English'. Finnish railways (VR) also use Finnish names for stations in Swedish speaking majority areas (e.g. Ekenäs - Tammisaari) on their English language website. Wikipedia naturally follows the wider practised tradition of using the municipality's majority language in English. That Finavia and VR's marketing departments do not do this should not cause us to change practice on Wikipedia.

On the subject of Diocese of Borgå, this name goes according to the population (i.e. membership) of the diocese. That is Swedish. It doesn't relate to the population of the municipality of Porvoo.

94pjg (talk) 01:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I actually did some research on this before modifying and I understand the majority language name is generally used. However, I referred to the Aeronautical Information Publication of Finland [2], where the official name of the airport is Kokkola-Pietarsaari / Kruunupyy in Finnish. --Pinecone (talk) 12:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That document appears to be some kind of aviation branch manual. Sorry, you probably have far more knowledge on the technicalities of flying than me!! But I don't think it's relevant for having an effect on how names of places in Finland should be treated in non-Scandinavian foreign languages (such as English). The rule is to use the language of the majority of the people in the municipality. Naturally, it is not universally used by external organisations (perhaps including the publishers of that book) who may not be particularly concerned with language (in other words, ignorance rather than any deliberate language policy).

I suppose it comes down to the fact of whether the article title refers to the "brand name" of the airport used by its owner/operator in marketing etc or whether it's a place name. I tend to think of it as a place name. For example, the amusement park Linnanmäki is called Borgbacken in Swedish - but the company uses the logo text "Linnanmäki" even in its Swedish marketing literature. However, the article in Swedish Wikipedia is still called Borgbacken because it is the name of the place. I think it's that logic that should be used here. Likewise, if Finavia decides to put it's name into all airport brand names in the future (e.g. Finavia Helsinki-Vantaa), I am sure that the article should still stay at Helsinki-Vantaa Airport on Wikipedia.

Perhaps though, we should edit this article to include a better explanation of the inconsistencies surrounding its name. Because there are inconstancies even in Finnish and Swedish. Airlines often don't even mention that the airport is in Kronoby! (Instead using Kokkola-Pietarsaari or Karleby-Jakobstad).

94pjg (talk) 19:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The official name of the airport is Kruunupyy Airport, not Kronoby Airport, so the article should be named as Kruunupyy Airport, as well. The fact that it is located in the Swedish-majority municipality of Kronoby is irrelevant. If it was relevant, then we should also rename Oulu Airport to Oulunsalo Airport (located in the municipality of Oulunsalo, not Oulu) and Stockholm-Arlanda Airport to Sigtuna Airport (located in Sigtuna Municipality, not Stockholm). --Apalsola ^{t • c} 17:01, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I asked Finavia about this. They answered that the whole official name is "Kokkola-Pietarsaari/Kruunupyy Airport" but it is often shortened as "Kruunupyy Airport" (not Kronoby Airport). In addition, the name is being changed to "Kokkola-Pietarsaari Airport" (similar to Kemi-Tornio Airport), omitting the Kruunupyy/Kronoby altogether. They didn't know (or didn't tell) when this is going to happen. --Apalsola ^{t • c} 11:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

But did you ask them what the official name is in Swedish or even specifically in English? In a bilingual municipality (as Kronoby is), the majority language is used. State institutions are also meant to follow this logic. So, for example, if (for some strange reason!) there was a particularly notable FPA office in Kronoby that deserved its own article, it would be called an FPA office not a Kela office. So, it seems that this article should be called Karleby-Jakobstad/Kronoby Airport if that is the new name. If Finavia have it legally wrong and are asserting that the Finnish name is official in English in a case where their facility is located in a bilingual municipality with Swedish as a majority language, then they should be informed that this is against the Language Law (which applies to public bodies and even private bodies when they are carrying out tasks on behalf of the state, e.g. if they are contracted to do something for a public body). The answer you may have received may simply be down to ignorance on Finavia's behalf - the person answering may not have Kronoby airport as a particular area of knowledge (it being one of their smaller facilities, I doubt they get asked much about it) or may not have really put much thought into the answer. If they do, however, persist, then I suggest that they be reported to Folktinget who will take this up with them (as they successfully have done with Finavia in the past, when they failed to place the Swedish name of Helsinki-Vantaa on the newer terminal building signs at that airport). Incidentally, is it just me or is that name really awkward in any language? This will be particularly problematic in this case, as the name they are suggesting contains the name of the 3 places which have different language compositions, which makes the foreign-language versions particularly problematic, i.e. should it be Kokkola-Jakobstad/Kronoby Airport to reflect the Finnish majority in Kokkola? I suspect its the same logic as used on road signs that apply. 94pjg (talk) 13:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I did ask the official name specifically in English. And the person who answered me was the chief of the air traffic control of the Kruunupyy Airport, so I think it is safe to assume that Kruunupyy Airport is a particular area of his knowledge. I am also aware about the policy to use the majority language name (in this case Kronoby) in international connections and I also did state that in my question. He still answered "Kruunupyy Airport". I agree with you, that Finavia may violate the Language Act[3] when using the name "Kruunupyy Airport". If so, then someone probably should make a complaint to get the name changed. But as long as the official name remains "Kruunupyy Airport" (or Kokkola-Pietarsaari/Kruunupyy Airport) then the name of the Wikipedia article should also be "Kruunupyy Airport" (or "Kokkola-Pietarsaari/Kruunupyy Airport"). If the official name is changed, for instance, to "Kronoby Airport", then the Wikipedia article should be renamed to "Kronoby Airport", too. (And I am perfectly fine with that. This is not a political issue for me.) But if the Wikipedia article is named "Kronony Airport" because we think that the official name violates the Language Act, that is (in my opinion) be original research and against the Wikipedia policies. (And to your question about the correct name according to the Language Act: In my opionion it would be "Kokkola-Jakobstad/Kronoby Airport". But at the moment, it is not.) --Apalsola ^{t • c} 21:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

In addition, we still have the Finavia website[4] and AIP Finland[5] as reference for the name Kruunupyy Airport (or Kokkola-Pietarsaari/Kruunupyy Airport) , so I'll rename the article as Kruunupyy Airport. --Apalsola ^{t • c} 15:58, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I moved the page back. Finavia obviously does not know how to use names in English, as they use Finnish names throughout. When they talk about the town of Jakobstad on their website in English, they consistently use "Pietarsaari" which is, plain and simple, wrong usage, just as it would be wrong to call Kokkola "Karleby". It is unfortunately not rare that some Finnish companies are ignorant of the Finnish naming conventions for place names in foreign languages, but there is no reason why we should let the ignorare of Finavia dictate Wikipedia usage.Jeppiz (talk) 19:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with this. Only recently the Foreign Ministry made a similar error in referring to Ekenäs as Tammisaari in an English press release, this was quickly changed on being pointed out. I also think it is important that we do not lose sight of the fact that this is an article about the place/thing 'Kronoby Airport' and the name should reflect the place name not the brand name that the airport operating company chooses to use in its marketing. Otherwise, we'd have to rename the London Heathrow Airport to BAA Heathrow and so on. 94pjg (talk) 23:20, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The airport is owned and run by Finavia. As the owner, Finavia has given (not translated) it an official English name "Kokkola-Pietarsaari/Kruunupyy Airport" (shortened "Kruunupyy Airport"; source given in the article). If you disagree with this, please give a source. --Apalsola ^{t • c} 22:19, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

London Heathrow Airport is owned and run by BAA. They have given the airport the brand name "BAA Heathrow" on their webpages, however that is not the name of the Wikipedia article as it is clearly less appropriate/encyclopaedic than London Heathrow Airport. In this case, the English language version of Finavia's website has a logo with the brand name you mention. This however does not override the language practice ascribed to place names in Finland and used in Wikipedia. And it certainly does not confer some sort of encyclopaedic quality to the name. In English Wikipedia, the language used for place names in Finland is that of the majority in the municipality of the place name in question. This is the solution that it used. Of course, it's not perfect as a solution (as it means some places are referred to by a language that does not reflect the local majority situation because language of use is determined by the overall majority in an entire municipality, the article on Pellinki would be a good example here. Pellinki is around 95% Swedish-speaking and therefore you could argue that it would be better presented as Pellinge to an English Wikipedia audience, but we must use Finnish as it is located in a municipality with a Finnish majority, Porvoo), but it's the best and most just solution we have. For more information, you can consult the official advice given by Kotus/Focis or in various places on Wikipedia. VR's English language website pages refer to railway stations in Swedish-speaking majority municipalities by their Finnish names (e.g. Karjaa, Pännäinen) as well. Both these instances almost certainly come down to a nonchalance (or ignorance) in the organisations' marketing departments. It does not change the reality of the place name. Incidentally, if you actually travel to the airport in question, all of the signage is in the order Swedish-Finnish-English and the sign by the main entrance reads Kronoby first. Presumably this sign was erected by Finavia, so why would it be any less official than their website, which is after all simply a customer-facing marketing tool? 94pjg (talk) 00:07, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not talking about brand names used on marketing, I am talking about official names. (BTW, for London Heathrow Airport, that is "London Heathrow Airport".[6]). According to AIP Finland[7] (an official documentation), for Kruunupyy/Kronoby Airport, the official name is "Kokkola-Pietarsaari/Kruunupyy Airport" (shortened "Kruunupyy Airport"). And as I stated before I also verified that from Finavia. Moreover, "Kokkola-Pietarsaari/Kruunupyy" is used in airline timetables, and "Kruunupyy Airport" also wins the Google fight hands down.[8][9] (Yes, I know, Google is no authority, but still it tells something about the name the airport is generally known.)

As far as majority-language-used-in-English policy is concerned, I am aware of that and I know it applies for names of municipalities, villages etc. with no official English name available. (And I strictly follow that policy in these cases.) But I disagree with you on that it would also apply for entities with an official English name. (If you think it does, please, provide a source.) --Apalsola ^{t • c} 10:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC) -- (edit) Apalsola ^{t • c} 11:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. Finavia have changed the English language version of the Kronoby webpage now, although they still call Jakobstad Pietersaari. Oh well. At least it is a start in the right direction of good practice. 94pjg (talk) 16:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, they have changed that recently. However, AIP Finland still uses "Kruunupyy". --Apalsola ^{t • c} 19:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

{{movereq|Kokkola-Pietarsaari Airport}}

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move. The reasons for are logical, and the only person who opposed did not return to the discussion. Therefore I have now moved the article. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

---

Kronoby Airport → Kokkola-Pietarsaari Airport — The airport was renamed as of 1 March 2010.[10] Apalsola ^{t • c} 17:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose The Finnish name was changed from Kruunupyy Airport to Kokkola-Pietarsaari Airport. The Swedish name was simultaneously changed from Kronoby Airport to Karleby-Jakobstad Airport. This proposal needs thinking out properly, in view of the previous discussion about using the Swedish form for Swedish speaking municipalities. That does cause problems, as I think I am right in saying we would finish up with a hybrid Kokkola-Jakobstad Airport (I think one municipality is majority Finnish speaking and the other Swedish). Skinsmoke (talk) 17:25, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Finavia, the owner and the operator of the airport has (re)named it as Kokkola-Pietarsaari Airport (in English), so it clearly is the name we should use in the article, too, regardless of the language proportions of Kokkola or Jakobstad. "Kokkola-Pietarsaari" is also the name used in airline timetables etc. So I don't see any reason to preserve the current name, apart from the fact that the airport is located in the municipality of Kronoby. But then we should rename a handful of Finnish airports, too, (And to clarify, the Finnish named was changed from Kruunupyyn lentoasema to Kokkola-Pietarsaaren lentoasema, and the Swedish name from Kronoby flygplats to Karleby-Jakobstad flygplats.) --Apalsola ^{t • c} 18:00, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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