Talk:Koh Tao murders/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Willbb234 (talk · contribs) 12:54, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Happy to give this article a review for GA. Regards, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:54, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• You've most likely considered the use of an infobox, so I'm not going to suggest it, but I'm just wandering why you decided not to use one?
  • I don't think there's enough information to make one useful. I mean, in {{Infobox event}} I could fill a couple of fields, but the lead is not that long and most of the same information is covered in the lead, so I didn't really think it helps. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
• Their bodies were discovered on Sairee Beach in the early morning without reading on, this might be confusing because it isn't clear that the murder happened on the same day earlier in the morning. You might want say that murder happened in the early morning and the bodies were discovered later in the morning.
  • Hmm, I agree it doesn't read well. How about something like "Their bodies were found between 4 and 5 am, a few hours after their deaths."? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

That sounds good. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 08:43, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done

• were widely criticised by international media a look through the rest of the article and I can't find evidence of this.
  • Removed. I think I inferred it from the news articles, but most of them attribute it to human rights organisations etc. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
• Wikilink to decree.
  •  Done ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

• Two BBC sources [1] and [2] say that Witheridge was from Hemsby which is near Great Yarmouth, but not the same place. This source says Miller is from Leeds, but the others say he is from Jersey, so I guess that should stay.
  •  Done Altered to Hemsby. Some other sources make mention of both and clarify this (eg [3]). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:04, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
• "Thais wouldn’t do this" you should clarify this is what a spokesman said not just the police in general, for proper attribution.
  •  Done ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
• many of them casual migrant workers not sure what 'casual' means here and if there's a need for it.
  •  Done I think I saw it in a source and it came out, but I can't find that source at a glance and agree there's no need for it anyway. Removed. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:48, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
• After introducing Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, you continue to refer to them by their full names and not just their surnames. I'm not sure if this is right?
  • I think when I wrote this I couldn't immediately figure out whether to use their first name or surname, since it's an Asian name. Not sure of the naming conventions here, as to whether Zaw is the family name or Lin. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:48, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
    • If you're unsure, then I guess just leave it how it is and nobody will mind. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 13:36, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
• Wikilink to duress.
  •  Done
• Is there no mention of a jury in the sources?
  • Court cases in Thailand are decided by a panel of judges, as far as I can tell (or at least this one was). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:48, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
• The island built a new police station do we have a date for when this happened?
• Can't find much at all to say about the trial and reaction sections other than they are written well.
• Do we not have any more images? I searched on commons, but found absolutely nothing. A shame really as there are plenty of images in the sources.
  • I don't think any are freely licensed. Which is a shame. I've skimmed Commons/Flickr. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:48, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
• References look fine, apart from this one. I'm not too enthused by their about us page [4] and the fact that they closed the website 6 years ago after two journalists were involved in a defamation case.
  • Replaced with a citation from the Bangkok Post. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I'll give you time to address these issues then pass for GA. Kind regards, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 09:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi. Dropping by with a comment. I wonder if the article should more explicitly discuss the general trend in Thailand where violent crimes against tourists tend to generate intense media coverage, and how it played a role in this case, probably prompting hasty/rushed responses from authorities, for fear of losing face. Not sure if the sources actually go to this in enough detail. --Paul_012 (talk) 12:26, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

You'll see at bullet point three that I mentioned that there wasn't anything to directly say there was lots of media coverage, but looking at the number of sources from large news sites, particularly in Britain, it could be included with some care. ProcrastinatingReader will have more to say on the impact they played on the police response, but of course, the police wouldn't really admit to being influenced like that, so I guess it's hard to find sources. Kind regards, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 13:34, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

There are some sources that briefly discuss pressure to complete the investigation quicker (eg [5]) but I don't know if there are any that specifically say that it caused the rushed response (I struggled to turn this angle into something encyclopaedic). It may be possible & relevant to include, but I don't think it's needed for broadness. There's also an angle of conspiracy theories (eg claims that the island mafia did it and then pinned it on some migrants) but I don't recall finding much about this in RS (it's mostly in tabloids).

I've finished the other points listed above I think. I can't find an exact (or even rough) date on when the police station was built, though. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:15, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Acknowledged. Most of what I could find were also editorials and opinion pieces. There's an article in the Asian Anthropology journal[6] that analyses the controversy at some depth, and could be used to further build the article if one has access, but I agree that's probably beyond the broadness required for GA. --Paul_012 (talk) 17:54, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Wow! That’s a great source, and very comprehensive. I have access; have skimmed through it so far but I’ll see what I can add in from it. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

PS regarding images, there's a photo set on Flickr of a protest in London over the case. The news channel TNN also has a lot of news clips on YouTube under the CC By licence. here's a search for CC-licensed videos about the Koh Tao case. Screen captures that don't show licensed file photos/videos or other derivative works should be fine licence-wise. I'm not quite sure though what would be appropriate. As you can see the media circus surrounding the case hasn't been exactly tasteful. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:47, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I'll hold back on promoting to GA as it seems there might be a bit more to come. Hope this is fine. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 19:11, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

@Willbb234 and Paul 012: I've expanded and improved content based primarily on the journal article but also some other sources. What do you think? The one thing I can't figure out (it's pointed out a HTML note in the article) is (a) the number of regular residents on the island; and (b) the number of tourists to the island annually, as of 2014. The sources appear to be in contradiction on these points. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:43, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I also think it might be worth moving the image of Sairee Beach down, and maybe adding some kind of picture of a map for the "background" section, to give context of the location of Koh Tao and make the rest of the text seem less dull and like a wall of text. But I suck at pictures, so any help in that regard would be welcomed. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

If there aren't images to use, then we shouldn't try to force them in when they don't really fit. I think it could be beneficial to include a map, but when the article mainly focuses on the investigation and reactions, I don't think it would add much. I have a comment or two regarding the text you have written, I'll put them below this. Kind regards, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 23:54, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

• The guilty verdict resulted in widespread protests in Myanmar. why were people protesting? Did they disagree with the verdict, did they think the trial was unfair, did they think they were innocent?
  • Added some explanatory prose. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:20, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
• He suggested... however, Kobkarn Wattanavrangkul is a woman, so unless you're referring to the Prime Minister, this needs to be changed.
  • Whoops... Fixed.

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

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A good read that covers the investigation, trial and reactions nicely. Additional information was added when a new source was found and there were further discussions relating to images and the new source. No copyvio and stable. The sources used were reliable, bar one which was removed. All information was cited sufficiently. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:16, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Thanks very much for your review, Willbb234, and Paul 012 for your help improving the article! :) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:23, 7 March 2021 (UTC)