Talk:Kobza

Turkic Kopuz

Please consider the Turkic Kopuz which is probably where the name Kobza comes from. Kopuz

81.213.0.98 30 June 2005 16:00 (UTC) This has a common origin, but divergent development. Galassi 01:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Picture

Would be very useful. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:20, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

=

1. Kobza IS NOT a type of bagpipe!
2. 'Discuss' should link to Talk:Bandura (there's the discussion) but I don't know how to change it! In some areas (in Poland) word Kobza denotes bagpipe. Galassi 00:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

kobza

The term "koboz" currently redirects to the above page, because it seems to be the only one dealing with and differentiating such instruments in E Europe. Therefore some notice of the E European term "koboz" - which is simply a dialectic version of "kobza", belongs on the present page unless and until you or someone else creates a page, linked to this one, giving details of such other E European instruments, or else suggests another page to which the search "koboz" ought to be linked. Please do not simply destroy material and leave a trail of useless links. Thanks Redheylin (talk) 22:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

You are mistaken. KOBOZ must redirect to COBZA with a C, an entirely different instrument, and a separate article.Galassi (talk) 22:59, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not think I was mistaken, since you have created that page since I posted but have not moved the information you deleted nor provided links to related pages. You have not supplied references to back up your contentions either. So this new page looks like a continuation of the vandalism so far. Please do the job properly or else restore, thanks. Note that "koboz" is closest to the Turkish - historically relevant.Redheylin (talk) 01:04, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

WHy don't you move that data? I've created the stub, feel free to add there anything you like. I am not an expert on Koboz/Cobza, so take it away. My area of expertise is Ukrainian music and instruments.Galassi (talk) 02:21, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

If you are not an expert on Cobza, how do you know it is the same as Koboz? If you are an expert on Ukrainian Kobza, why can you not provide reference material showing the relation of the two instruments? Either way, you are vandalising wiki. You seem to be saying that Ukrainian things must be separate from all else. That is a political POV for which you are damaging the prospects of a well-referenced music history. You have jettisoned the material and so it is up to you to find the right place for it and link correctly if you are not to be a vandal. Please do so. Redheylin (talk) 02:48, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

A google of kobza-cobza and romania shows that the k spelling is far more common in Romania.(talk) 02:48, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

[[1]] does not mention a specifically Ukrainian kobza, just that the Romanian and Hungarian may be the direct descendant of the "Northern Slav" kobza. [[2]] says the two are identical. The importance of the instrument as a national symbol is one thing - it is also said in wiki to be true of the komuz and the tamburica - but to insist upon cutting all links with history and geography is to turn this instrument into an icon of ignorance and racism. Please produce comprehensive sources and do the work. Redheylin (talk) 03:12, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Stop kvetching and do your homework. There is no letter K in Romanian - http://www.omniglot.com/writing/romanian.htm, only in loanwords. You might want to read http://torban.org for the history of Ukrainian music and instruments.Galassi (talk) 11:43, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

The link you provide shows the letter K present in the modern Romanian alphabet. The search "Kobza and Romania" gives some seven times more results than "Cobza and Romania". Kobza IS a loanword from Turkey via Ukraine according to the Romanian sources I gave. But those sources do not support your idea that Romanian kobza is "entirely different" and always spelled with C. Rather, both are designed after the oud but named after the komuz. It is hardly likely that this would happen independently in two contiguous territories. Your claim is not holding up. I am copying this discussion to the talk page and shall request other editorial input. Redheylin (talk) 18:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

3rd opinion

Is anyone close to a library that has a copy of the Grove Dictionary of Music? This helped me to resolve a similar nomenclature issue with the tanbur article. I would be happy to check it myself but I couldn't give a realistic timeframe for doing so. My $0.02, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:29, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't - I have an Oxford Companion, but they are very bad at this kind of thing. It'd be great if you'd check, even in an unrealistic timeframe, as indeed is the one I am calling from.....Library yes maybe.(talk) 18:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

The library is very close to my home, the issue is simply not enough time to go. There are a few other things I'd want to check at the same time, while I was there. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Galassi - are you happy to accept Grove as the deciding authority? You have still offered no references to back your edits. Redheylin (talk) 18:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

The last Grove does NOT have articles on either KOBZA or COBZA. I have access to Grove online.Galassi (talk) 19:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

http://www.torban.org/mamai/ Ukrainian Kobza images. Galassi (talk) 19:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks for checking that. Now, here[[3]] and here[[4]] are two Youtube videos of the Romanian KKKKKOBZA. This, you will recall, is the instrument of which you removed all trace from wiki without adequate reason and which, you appear to be saying, cannot be referenced on or linked to the present page Kobza. We need your references to justify this, otherwise it looks like original-research, POV based disruptive editing. Tuning and usage do not differentiate two instruments. You say that the Romanian instrument has a different HornbostelSachs class. Great, we need your reference. But still, even so, this will require giving the information on the present page or at the very least providing links to another page. It IS up to you to provide info and refs on the Romanian kobza-cobza, since you have edited the information on that instrument by deleting it and by asserting the difference. Redheylin (talk) 19:26, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

http://www.torban.org/torban2.html Galassi (talk) 19:28, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Romanian COBZA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7I5id8UCZI .

Ukrainian KOBZA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8PozRaFEXI . Compare and stop wasting our time. Galassi (talk) 19:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Your link reads KOBZA is of uncertain origin, evolving from some form of KOB-UZ/KOMUZ, most likely spread by invading Turkic POLOVETSIANS that still survive in Ukraine, Moldavia and Valachia as GAGAUZ, or even earlier, during the BULGARIANS' migration from upper Volga to their current home in the Balkans during the 6th-7th centuries (testimony of Ibd-Fadlan, an arab diplomat at the Bulgar capital mentiones idan and tanbirin, i.e. lutelike instruments...). However it developed very differently from either the KOB-UZ or another relative: the Moldavian-Valachian KOBZA, both of which have extremely short, unfretted necks.

What does this mean? Certainly it says there is a Moldavian-Valachian Kobza - but it appears to say it developed differently from itself. Or is that differently from the idan and tanbirin? No H-S number there. What is this meant to show - that the Romanian instrument has to be referenced here? Did I miss something? It may also be spelled with a c in Romania - that is not the point. Redheylin (talk) 19:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Ukrainian Kobza is closer to Komuz. Moldavian Kobza is closer to Gadulka. Moldavian apparently became referred to as kobza under Ukrainian influence, though the closer form of Hungarian "koboz" to the Turkish is not explained. Very interesting. Why do you wish to delete this information? Redheylin (talk) 19:46, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

• It says: 1. Cobza and Kobza are from 2 different families. READ: C. is METAL-STRUNG. K. is GUT-STRUNG. C. has a SHORT (or NONE) neck. K. has a MEDIUM or LONG neck. They have DIFFERENT TUNINGS. That is how instrument families are differentiated in ORGANOLOGY. The differences don't end there.Galassi (talk) 20:46, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

• There is a source here that may be of use: [5]. It seems to assert that kobza, cobza, koboz etc. are names of the same type of instrument used in different countries. Jayen466 20:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Galassi - great that you can find details about the Romanian kobza and its differences from the Ukrainian. The central facts are; 1) I inserted a sentence saying "cobza and coboz are other forms of lute taking their name from kobza". 2) Romanian kobza is frequently spelled "kobza". 3) you deleted this information from wiki saying it was "irrelevant". And I am asking you to put in proper notices and references, otherwise your editing is destructive, uncivil, POV. Thanks. Redheylin (talk) 21:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Jayen that is a great source and it, like most of them, confirms that the term "kobza" is not confined to the Ukrainian instrument. That's the point! Redheylin (talk) 21:42, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Pleasure. More below. Jayen466 21:52, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Where does it say that Cobza and Kobza are the same instrument?Galassi (talk) 21:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Additional sources

Just rummaging, some of the following may be of use in the article:

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The music of these bandura ensembles is presented by its administrators and practitioners as if it were based on, or a continuation of, older village music practices of the blind peasant minstrels of Ukraine, the kobzari and lirnyky, and thus a long-standing Ukrainian music practice. As in many other parts of the world, this popular and officially sanctioned representation of cultural history has a complex history. The instruments, repertory, and performance practices of these giant folklore bandura ensembles have virtually nothing in common with village music practice. One of the instruments of the blind peasant minstrels, a plucked lute known to villagers as kobza, was small, handmade, and of village design, with no two exactly alike. 8 The performer, always male and virtually always blind, earned cash by performing in public places, often next to churches and monasteries, as well as in small town market squares and in village streets walking from house to house. A pupil studied privately for a few months or years with a blind village minstrel, accompanying him on his travels. He had to turn over to his teacher whatever earnings he produced during the learning period in payment for his lessons. A minstrel usually performed only solo (not in ensemble), or at most sang in duet. 9 His repertory consisted mostly of psal'my (a religious genre with textual themes derived largely from the Bible) and dumy (heroic epics based on Cossack myths and historical events), with a smattering of dance tunes and satirical songs. 10

Shadows in the Field: New Perspectives for Fieldwork in Ethnomusicology. Contributors: Gregory F. Barz - editor, Timothy J. Cooley - editor. Publisher: Oxford University Press. Place of Publication: New York. Publication Year: 1997. Page Number: 175.

---

Blind peasant minstrels performing lira (hurdy-gurdy) and kobza (a plucked bowl lute) were common in villages up to the 1930s. Lira performers were known over a wide territory, including (using current borders) eastern and southern Poland, virtually all of Ukraine, most of Belarus, and southwestern regions of Russia, mostly those bordering both Belarus and Ukraine. Kobza was known principally in certain Left Bank regions of Ukraine, especially in the Chernihiv, Poltava, and Kharkiv regions. The kobza of Romania is a different plucked lute; that of the Polish highland region, Podhale, is a bagpipe. In the late nineteenth century the strings of the Ukrainian kobza normally numbered anywhere from eight to about thirty, and were tuned diatonically. The twentieth centurybandura is also a plucked bowl lute, but is larger and mass produced in factories. It has about sixty strings and is usually tuned chromatically.

Shadows in the Field: New Perspectives for Fieldwork in Ethnomusicology. Contributors: Gregory F. Barz - editor, Timothy J. Cooley - editor. Publisher: Oxford University Press. Place of Publication: New York. Publication Year: 1997. Page Number: 187.

---

In the late- nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries, the period from which we get most of our data on traditional Ukrainian folklore, there were two types of minstrels, kobzari and lirnyky. Kobzari played the bandura. As stated earlier, this is an asymmetrical stringed instrument that resembles a lute that has grown a harp to one side (see Fig. 2). Its predecessor was the kobza, the instrument from which kobzari derive their name. There has been a great deal of debate about the bandura and the kobza, their origin, and their evolution.10 What is certain is that this is the instrument which, like the dumy and the Cossacks, became associated with Ukraine and thus acquired great prestige as a symbol of freedom and nationalistic feeling. Lirnyky, the other type of traditional minstrel, played the lira (see Fig. 3). This instrument is strikingly dissimilar from the bandura. It is a hurdy-gurdy with three strings and a crank-driven wheel which rubs the strings and produces a droning sound more like that of a bagpipe than that of a stringed instrument. The wheel is turned with the right hand, while the left hand plays piano-like keys which depress one of the strings and create the melody ( Demuts'kyi 1903).

By the middle of the nineteenth century, the time when extensive folklore fieldwork began in Ukraine, kobzari and lirnyky were a unit. They belonged to the same guilds. They sang essentially the same songs. There were even instances when they learned from each other. To give just one example, the well-known lirnyk Hrebin' was the apprentice of the equally well-known kobzar Parkhomenko ( Speranskii 1906 :123; Khotkevych 1903). At the same time, the lira and the bandura are so dissimilar in appearance, sound, and playing technique that the two categories of minstrel must, at some point, have been distinct. The usual supposition is that, in the distant past, kobzari and lirnyky were separate categories of musician. Kobzari, in all probability, were the minstrels of the military and the court. There are judicial records which refer to kobzari. One is an arrest warrant for a kobzar Liubistok who escaped from the court in Moscow and was presumed headed back to his native Ukraine ( V. G. 1888; Lavrov 1980 :63-64). One is the confession of Bandurko, a minstrel accused of aiding Cossacks who had turned to brigandry ( Iastrebov 1886). Several are execution orders for Cossackaffiliated kobzari ( K.F.U.O. 1882). We know next to nothing about early lirnyky and it is presumed that these were church-affiliated mendicants, much like the minstrels documented in the nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries. When the Zaporozhian Sich, the center of Cossack activity, was disbanded and the Cossacks ceased to exist ( Kohut 1988), support for professional military musicians ceased also.

Footnote 10 says: The classic study is Famintsyn ( 1881 ): kobza, pp. 87-109; bandura, pp. 110-70.

Duma Pro Chornobyl': Old Genres, New Topics. Contributors: Natalie Kononenko - author. Journal Title: Journal of Folklore Research. Volume: 29. Issue: 2. Publication Year: 1992. Page Number: 138.

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The dumas are a new genre of the traditional oral literature. In their verse and musical form they represent a higher stage in the recitatif style which had already been developed in the lamentations. From the latter they adopted certain motifs and poetic images, and they also resembled the lamentations in allowing room for improvisation.

The dumas are not sung but are performed in recitatif to a musical accompaniment on the bandura, kobza, or lira (bandore, lute, or lyre). The duma has no definite strophic structure and is divided into unequal periods, according to the course of the tale; each such period forms a complete syntactical whole, and contains a complete thought; the verse consists of lines of unequal length. In contradistinction to the artificial verses of the same period, the verses in the dumas have a clear-cut rhythm, and rhyme (especially of verbs) plays an important role in uniting several lines. The melody of the musical accompaniment varies greatly according to the content. Every kobzar has his own particular variation of the melody and to this he recites all the dumas of his repertory. There are certain similarities between the poetic structure of the dumas and that of the Serbian epos. Like the folk songs, the duma uses parallelisms and contrasts. Among special stylistic features mention must be made of the frequent use of double synonymous expressions and constant epithets.

Ukraine: A Concise Encyclopedia. Volume: 1. Contributors: Volodymyr E. KubijovyČ - editor. Publisher: University of Toronto Press. Place of Publication: Toronto. Publication Year: 1963. Page Number: 363.

---

An example of this form is the extremely ancient funeral laments which are performed monodically without instrumental accompaniment (at times by professional mourners). This style reaches a higher grade of development in the steppe region of Ukraine in the epic-lyric historical dumas, which are also recited monodically but to the accompaniment of a kobza-bandura by professional kobzar-singers or bandurists.

ibid., p. 372.

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The period from the sixteenth to the eighteenth centuries was the golden age in the development of Ukrainian folk music as is shown by the flowering of lyric songs and historical dumas, the wealth of rhythmic forms, and the appearance of new stringed instruments, such as the lyre and the kobza-bandura. In addition, there appeared new types of folk singers and musicians such as the lyre-players (lirnyky) and the kobzars and bandurists, who formed musical brotherhoods which were organized like the artisan guilds.

ibid., p. 376

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The kobza was the predecessor of the bandura. Although the time of its original appearance has not been established

[FIGURE 268. THE bandura]

exactly, it probably had an oval or round body with a long, fretted neck, and three or four strings.

The bandura is generally accepted as the more modern version of the kobza. It has many more strings (up to approximately 60), there are no frets on the neck, and it is an open-string instrument. The characteristic feature of the bandura- is the prystrunky (treble strings). The strings are struck, or plucked, with the tips of the fingers, or with the nails, although in the past some banduraplayers, the bandurists, used plectra.

The bandura was considered the national instrument of Ukraine in the middle of the seventeenth century, but later sank into oblivion. In the nineteenth century it was played primarily by blind, itinerant, semi-professional musicians. It was revived in the twentieth century ( Khotkevych, Yemets), and underwent certain structural changes, becoming asymmetrical.

ibid., p. 379

---

The bandura of Little Russia is one of the interesting family of archlutes, with a slender, oval body, twelve speaking strings and four sympathetic wires strung below to augment the tone. A development from the bandura is the kobza with its broken neck and elegant body, page 180, and also the torban, a lute-like instrument of various forms. The forms developed may be quite simple, or more complex. The number of strings varies--often there are as many as thirty--and they are either of gut or wire. In one example fourteen are strung on the body, twelve on the neck, and four from the projection at the top.

A History of Russian Art. Contributors: Cyril G. E. Bunt - author. Publisher: Studio. Place of Publication: London, New York. Publication Year: 1946. Page Number: 182.

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Kobza --Ancient musical instrument of Moravia, having the general appearance of a lyre (q.v.).

Kobzar --A class of 17th and 18th century Ukrainian troubadours who traveled about the country singing military songs. Although most wandering performers stressed religious and folk music (see rybalt and bandurist), the patriotic nature of the kobzar music was induced by the almost constant state of war with the Muscovites, Tartars and Poles. They were organized in various 'singing guilds' and brotherhoods.

Dictionary of the Arts. Contributors: Martin L. Wolf - author. Publisher: Philosophical Library. Place of Publication: New York. Publication Year: 1951. Page Number: 378.

---

Hope these are useful. Jayen466 21:52, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Very useful, I think. Here is even more to show that the Romanian instrument must be clearly flagged on this page; The kobza of Romania is a different plucked lute; that of the Polish highland region, Podhale, is a bagpipe.

Galassi, it seems as though you may have altered this page recently to attempt to make it appear as if I were asserting that all kobzas are the same. Please do not alter other editors' contributions on talk pages. I am asserting that the spelling "kobza" is common in E Europe outside the Ukraine, that it refers to several similar instruments and that the history and differences must be readily available here. Redheylin (talk) 22:15, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a slightest idea what "alterations" you refer to.Galassi (talk) 22:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Check the history then! Redheylin (talk) 22:43, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Redheylin means this edit, in which you (accidentally, I presume) deleted a post of his as well as a post of mine. I restored my post myself, but overlooked that one of Redheylin's had gone as well. Both are restored now, so everything is fine again. Jayen466 00:00, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Akyn

Akyns or aqyns (Kazakh: ақын, IPA: [ɑqə́n], Kyrgyz: акын, IPA: [ɑqɯ́n]) are improvising poets and singers in the Kazakh and Kyrgyz cultures. Akyns differs from the so-called zhiraus, who are epic storytellers and a song performers. Akyns improvise in the form of a song-like recitative to the accompaniment of a dombra (among Kazakhs) or a qomuz (among Kyrgyz).

The present page says that the Ukrainian kobza was introduced by "Cossacks". The komuz page mentions both Kazakhstan and Kirghizstan. The present page does not clarify this or link well to the Central Asian pages (just as it does not link well to its E European namesakes). I cannot find a clear account of how the Ukrainian kobza differes from the komuz and/or the Kazakh dombura. Redheylin (talk) 23:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Cossack are NOT Kazakhs.Galassi (talk) 00:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

No - if we are to believe the Cossack pages they are Poles! It is amazing how little is known about how Ukrainian Cossacks come to have a - erm - Kazakh name, and that black ignorance continues when we wonder how their Turkic-named instrument appears so much like a Turkic instrument (as can clearly be seen in the You-Tube video you cited - this is to the extent that the various pics of the Ukrainian Kobza you have produced resemble one another at all}. Instead we are informed that the Ukrainian kobza derives entirely from the west (no references), yet we are not entitled to know why it shares its name with other western instruments. "Cossack" history, as it says upon that very page, has become an icon -

In Ukraine where the Cossackdom represents historical and cultural heritage, some people have been attempting to recreate the images of Ukrainian Cossacks. Traditional Ukrainian culture is often tied in with the Cossacks and the Ukrainian government actively supports these attempts.

and so, it seems, we find the Ukrainian kobza existing in a hermetic dream-world of its own as an entity that has no relation at all with the music of the world but exists purely as a timeless symbol in Ukrainian nationalist mythology. A certain amount of this might be acceptable in a page on Ukrainian music. But it is absolutely unacceptable that you should seek to present such views here by removal of whatever data does not fit with the political programme. Redheylin (talk) 00:32, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Also

A Ukrainian Cossack with a Mandora, c.1750

Galassi this pic uploaded by you is on the Mandora page. I can find no reference that this is a mandora, and the Cossack use of the Mandora is not documented on the page. Can you help? Redheylin (talk) 23:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any idea what is a mandora? Galassi (talk) 00:10, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Please be civil and provide the evidence. Redheylin (talk) 00:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I've played lutes for 20 years. And I am telling you it is one. You may look for contradictory evidence if you please.Galassi (talk) 00:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

This IS original research, then? That is what I was thinking. Now, you ask if I know what a Mandora is. Again it depends what you mean. Here[6] you have made one of several edits that Mandora is nothing to do with Mandore (instrument). This conflicts directly with the online Enc Brit here[[7]] - and again you deleted info without references. This is significant, because we are very close here to Romanian kobza in design. Redheylin (talk) 01:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

THis is standard Early Music scholarship. Also EB is no longer considered a reliable source, especially for music-related matters.Lute88 (talk) 13:49, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Lute88 - you who are known to mail from Galassi's computer and have views and language indistinguishable from Galassi[8] - then there is no problem. If this is "standard", then produce overwhelming references. Redheylin (talk) 23:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

All refs are there. Daft tags do not qualify as a contribution.Galassi (talk) 23:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

• The 1994 print version of the Encyclopædia Britannica has a little more info on the mandora and mandolin. It says, under Mandora: "A late variety [of the mandora] was the 18th-century Milanese mandolin, distinct from the modern, or Neapolitan, mandolin. "Mandora" also denotes the tenor or alto Neapolitan mandolin."
• Under Mandolin, the same EB edition mentions, after a lengthier description of the Neapolitan mandolin, that "The Milanese mandolin of the 18th century was a small, lutelike instrument with five or six courses of strings, a late variety of the medieval mandora."
• Btw, where does it say that EB is no longer considered a RS? Jayen466 21:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no explicit statement that EB is no good, it just doesn't get any attention anymore. For MAndora articles see Andreas Schlegel's Laute in Europa, in German; and Renato Meucci, Federico Marincola and Pietro Prosser, all in Italian.Galassi (talk) 23:39, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Please give detailed citations for your edits. Thanks. Redheylin (talk) 01:00, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Torban

A predecessor of the torban called kobza (also known as bandura) was the instrument of the common folk. It differed from the torban by the absence of the bass strings, and was closely related in its organology to central European Mandora and Pandora (see Lute).

This is also problematic - it identifies the kobza and bandura. It's your product, Galassi, is it not? But the kobza-bandura, (which directs to this page) is not a true long-necked lute. There seems no consistency in the idea of "Ukrainian Kobza", which makes it even harder to see why you reject every connection with every non-Ukrainian kobza. Redheylin (talk) 02:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no such thing as consistency. Nothing is ever as clear-cut as we'd like it to be. There are hybrid instruments, and hybrid names. On Kobza and Mandora relationship see Jakob Stehlin.Lute88 (talk) 13:52, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

If there is no possibility of consistency and clarity, then it was wrong to remove views that did not accord with your own absolutely clear and consistent, but sadly unreferenced, statements. Redheylin (talk) 23:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Reasons for tags

So here is the overall problem, Galassi, again that caused me to tag the page. As a background, having spent some time editing string instruments, it has proved that, not just here but at several other places, the account of instruments in the Balkan-E Asian region has been subject to aggressive and poorly referenced editing, often with methodical alterations of surrounding data which has given rise to dispute. This is preventing wiki from giving a sound account of the development of e.g. modern western instruments.

The main source you are using[9] says, as we have seen, that

The kobza of Romania is a different plucked lute; that of the Polish highland region, Podhale, is a bagpipe.

You have created a page "cobza" to deal with the Romanian version, although Google shows that "kobza" is more usual. There is also the Polish version. If these were distinctly separate there would be no problem with a separate page, but still it should be clear in the lede that these instruments exist, the page exists etc.

However, when showing that the Ukrainian version was "entirely different", you quoted YouTube[10] which shows a komuz-like instrument - this is where the word "kobza" arises. But the top two pics on the present page show a form of bowl-lute like an oud, and at the bottom there is a bandura, a hybrid zither, while Mamy appears to play a cylinder-lute. These are three entirely different classes, they differ from each other as much as each does from the Romanian instrument. It is nonsense to say that "the kobza derives from the mandore" and there is no justification for failing to explain these different forms of instrument here, including the Romanian and to delineate the history and typology of all the instruments. Redheylin (talk) 00:03, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Different variations of the komuz spread to several eastern European countries such as the Ukraine, Poland and Hungary during the 4th-5th century A.D, during the mass migration of the Huns into the region. There they became known with similar variations of the name. (See : kobza)

• Well, actually, I was just about to mention that the entire section on "The modern Ukrainian kobza" does not cite any references at all, except for one which is a personal web page (see WP:ELNO/WP:SPS, plus the picture of Drach seems to be taken from that page, which raises a potential copyright concern). Jayen466 00:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
• In addition, I doubt that torban.org would pass muster at WP:RS/N, especially noting its disclaimer. It is a personal webpage that makes no claim of being an authoritative source. Jayen466 00:22, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

We have to use our expertise as editors, and I note, though it's not well-referenced, that "komuz" in Turkic can also refer to non-string instruments and seems to mean just "resonator" or something, so the appearance of Polish komuz bagpipes in the time of Cossack Ukraine does not surprise me. Since Cossack means kazakh and kobza means komuz, and since nobody is disputing that Ukraine spread these words, I cannot see the problem. The source IS self-published, but at present I'd be glad to stick to ANY verifiable source.Redheylin (talk) 01:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Just where did you pick up that piece of etymology? Look here - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cossacks . Galassi (talk) 01:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Not that Ukrainian Cossacks have anything much to do with Kazakhstan, of course, just that the word refers to the horse-breeding nomadic Turko-Mongol lifestyle. We have to picture that influence on music in the historical context of the Khans and Moghuls, Alp Arslan and Dede Korkut. Elsewhere on wiki it is said maybe these people invented the whole idea of the horse-hair bow. There's an aspect of western orchestral percussion called "Turkish". It matters. I am simply style and format editing the pages and looking at the refs and links. Here I find serious issues, as with the source, formatting, duplication, over-weighting and captioning of images as well as the text. At the above page I find;

the komuz spread to several eastern European countries such as the Ukraine, Poland and Hungary during the 4th-5th century A.D, during the mass migration of the Huns into the region

and on the present page

The name kobza is of Turkic origin and is related to the terms kobyz and komuz, thought to have been introduced into the Ukrainian language in the 13th century with the migration of a sizable group of people from Abkhazia and their settlement in the Poltava region

In this case, since there is so much original research in the field, I will normally cross-link and commit an act of personal synthesis until I have surveyed the whole field and found a reliable source that covers it. This makes it easier to make sure the whole account makes overall sense. I do not simply delete the information I least like. But here I find I am subject to such editing, as well as hostile reversion and multiple accounts. There is even an entire page on the bandura (again wholly Ukrainian) but no reasonable synthesis of the history of both. There is even a page kobza-bandura. Perhaps this page should be just a disambiguation? Redheylin (talk) 03:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

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