Talk:Knowing Taiwan

Requested move 14 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Knowing Taiwan → Understanding Taiwan – Knowing Taiwan is simply incorrect. Should revert to the previous translation Understanding Taiwan. Lolitart (talk) 14:35, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Can you provide some sources? There is one source for Knowing Taiwan. DrIdiot (talk) 14:53, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Knowing Taiwan is incorrect because knowing emphasis the status, that is you already know, while understanding emphasis the process, that is you are learning. You can easily find multiple textbooks titled Understanding something, but probably never Knowing something, because that's just not how the word is used. Lolitart (talk) 15:16, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Since we have one RS that calls it Knowing Taiwan we need some other articles calling it Understanding Taiwan to try to find what the WP:COMMONNAME is. What you're proposing is WP:OR. To be clear I am not advocating one over another. DrIdiot (talk) 15:46, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

The Chen reference in the article translates it Getting to Know Taiwan, FYI. DrIdiot (talk) 16:47, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Getting to Know Taiwan is correct, while Knowing Taiwan is not. Lolitart (talk) 08:06, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Your assessment of "correctness" has nothing to do with naming of articles on Wikipedia. We go by the sources. Please read WP:DIVIDEDUSE. I don't see a strong argument for one or the other so I'm going to default to opposing the move unless one can give a strong argument on those grounds. DrIdiot (talk) 10:43, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Grammar obviously play a role in any English writing. That is true with or without policy. Lolitart (talk) 12:55, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. Rènshì does not literally translate to "understanding", and OP has not provided any sources to support the proposed title. 162 etc. (talk) 17:34, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

  Despite what you think is the better translation, the current option is grammatically incorrect. Lolitart (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

It's not a grammar issue for two reasons. First, Wikipedia goes by how most sources translate it, whether grammatically correct or not. Second, "knowing" can certainly be followed by a noun. DrIdiot (talk) 10:33, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

knowing can be followed by a noun but the meaning of that phrase is totally different from the intended meaning of the this textbook as I've explained above. Lolitart (talk) 12:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. None of the sources we have in the article use the word "understanding". One of them uses Knowing Taiwan and the other uses Getting to Know Taiwan. The proposer does not appear interested in supplying alternative sources. DrIdiot (talk) 04:43, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

That said might be worth discussing the title. Ref tally: Knowing Taiwan [1] (Schneider 05) [2] (Corcuff 02) [3] (Stolojan 17), Know Taiwan [4] (Hughes Stone 09), Getting to Know Taiwan[5] (Chen WC 04) [6] (Chen JJ 06) [7] (Amae Damm 11) [8] (Wang FC 05), Understanding Taiwan [9] (Liou 19)

Far more academic translations use "know" than "understanding" -- it's kind of close between "knowing" and "getting to know".DrIdiot (talk) 04:57, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Made inline edit above to add to the list DrIdiot (talk) 05:00, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Comment: After looking through the literature, it seems divided between "Knowing Taiwan" and "Getting to Know Taiwan" ("Know Taiwan" is less common but is used by China Quarterly which I think is reputable). "Understanding Taiwan" is noticeably less common. Guidelines in WP:DIVIDEDUSE suggest to keep it stable until one usage becomes dominant, so I still oppose moving the article to any of the above. DrIdiot (talk) 10:58, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Understanding Taiwan isn't noticeably less common, a search on Google scholar will return plenty results from plenty scholars in reference of the textbook, it would only appear less common as that's the common phrase to use whether in combination or alone, and Knowing Taiwan is a phrase almost no one else use outside of the context of this textbook. Knowing Taiwan only have 180ish results from Google Scholar while Understanding Taiwan has 830ish, that's an order of magnitude more, other than the fact that knowing Taiwan would be simply incorrect. Lolitart (talk) 13:08, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

The Google scholar results are not accurate because they end up picking up unrelated instances of "understanding Taiwan" and "knowing Taiwan". DrIdiot (talk) 13:39, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

This is, in fact, discussed in WP:DIVIDEDUSE which I have already linked you to. DrIdiot (talk) 13:41, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.