Talk:Kim Ju-ae

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Kim Ju-ae.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:23, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Kim Ju Ae.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:54, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 26 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Support and opposition is roughly equal, with supporters citing a general trend / convention in favour of non-hyphenated names, and opposers pointing out that there has been no decisive demonstration of a WP:COMMONNAME here. Overall then, there is no clear consensus and we remain where we are.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

---

• Kim Ju-ae → Kim Ju Ae
• Ri Sol-ju → Ri Sol Ju
• Kim Jong-chul → Kim Jong Chul
• Kim Jong-nam → Kim Jong Nam

– since Kim Jong Un and his father and grandfather have been discussed to move to these new names, the rest of his family should follow suit too. Joséthewikier (talk) 06:05, 26 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 14:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose I see roughly half of publications using the hyphen and half not. New York Times, the Guardian, South China Morning Post, News Corp, use -. New York Post, CBC, Forbes use space. Since there is no clear prominent use, just leave it as it is. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Korea has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Socialism has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Women has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose WP:COMMONNAME should be established for these people. toobigtokale (talk) 12:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Support The general direction of style guidelines is to move away from hyphens which are seen as old-fashioned old fashioned. It's where things are headed for better or worse. It won't be a complete transition some hyphens will always exist, and it won't happen quickly or smoothly, but that is the trend. -- GreenC 15:23, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean this for Koreans in general, North Koreans, or the Kim family specifically? Either way, I find the wording here overly broad. I've read multiple threads now where people claim (sometimes without evidence procided) that all North Koreans are commonly referred to with the no space format, but I disagree; some are nearly exclusive to academic contexts where McCune–Reischauer without spaces is dominant.

In general I've seen these threads talk about a change to the naming policy, but no such change has actually been proposed to the naming policy yet. Until a change is proposed, I'm of the opinion that common name is what matters for these people. toobigtokale (talk) 20:17, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

• Comment WP:COMMONNAME is the first consideration; OP has provided no sources for any of the proposed moves. Per WP:NCKO, McCune–Reischauer is used for North Korean names (if there is no established usage in English-language sources.) Per that article: "In personal names, each syllable in a Sino-Korean given name is separated by a space with the first letter of each syllable capitalized." There is no requirement for family members' names to be consistent. 162 etc. (talk) 21:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support - All names of NK-related people, past and living, have to follow the official NK romanization of Korean whith no hyphen, not the SK one. Thus, Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il, Kim Jong-un, Kim Yo-jong, Ko Yong-hui, Kim Jong-suk, Kim Yong-ju etc. were moved to Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong Un, Kim Yo Jong, Ko Yong Hui, Kim Jong Suk, Kim Yong Ju etc. Even SK dictator Park Chung-hee was moved around the same time to Park Chung Hee. GreatLeader1945 ^TALK 09:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Park Chung Hee doesn't work as a supporting argument here; I've pointed this out to you before. That move happened purely because of common name, not because of the North Korean standard. It has nothing to do with why those other North Korean peoples' articles were moved. toobigtokale (talk) 09:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Toobigtokale Still, my point stands as I've given many NK-related examples. The Park Chunge Hee one is a bonus - more in the sense of "See, the hyphen gets dropped even from SK-related people's names!" kind of thing. GreatLeader1945 ^TALK 09:33, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Your point doesn't stand. WP:COMMONNAME needs to be established or there needs to be a policy change to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean) to set a standard for North Korean people. Furthermore, your point is imprecise; you say All names of NK-related people, past and living, have to follow the official NK romanization of Korean whith no hyphen, but in other comments you concede that COMMONNAME can override the NK standard.

  The Park Chung Hee point isn't a bonus because it's not related. It's a different country with, as you point out, a different romanization standard. If I found a Chinese person's name having a hyphen added to it for common name reasons and tried to use that as evidence, I'd be rightfully dismissed. toobigtokale (talk) 09:42, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  I also disagree that all NK people "have to follow" that standard. WP:COMMONNAME will overrule the standard if it needs to. If the entire English speaking world started spelling Kim Il Sung as "Kim Il-sung", we would eventually switch to spelling it like that because of COMMONNAME, regardless of NK's official preferences. toobigtokale (talk) 09:15, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Toobigtokale That's how the realities of things are for now, regardless of your preferences. Kim Il Sung etc. won't change back world-wide to Kim Il-sung anytime soon. GreatLeader1945 ^TALK 09:36, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  ...I actually prefer the names without the hyphens. We're on the same side but I don't think your or the move request's logic is sound. toobigtokale (talk) 09:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  I will summarize my argument one final time for clarity.

  Currently, spelling North Korean peoples' names without spaces by default or universally is not codified in WP:NCKO. In fact, NCKO actually goes against this, and recommends hyphenation by default. I'd argue if a unilateral change to the North Korean naming policy is desired, you guys should go for it. Otherwise, for these individual moves, if evidence of WP:COMMONNAME is not provided and all you have is precedent of a few different people (even if same family; my mom romanizes her name differently from mine), I'd argue the move request doesn't have adequate support.

  If someone proposes a change to NCKO, as long as the reasoning is sound I'd probably be in support of it. But so far that's not been done. toobigtokale (talk) 21:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.