Talk:Killucan helicopter crash

Idk bout this one

Barely even a page, just straight lead section Jackwagsy (talk) 11:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Personally, until independent notability is established (and the WP:NOTNEWS, WP:LASTING, WP:PERSISTENCE, WP:BREAKING concerns addressed), I wonder if this topic should be covered WP:WITHIN another article. Like the Raharney or Killucan articles. With a redirect. Until it is established that the topic has sufficient coverage/lasting relevance/notability to warrant a standalone article. Guliolopez (talk) 12:15, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Bump. While I'm wary of seeming indelicate, I'm having a hard time understanding how this article fits within project scope. Per WP:NOTNEWS, "most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style". And yet that seems to be what's happened (and is happening) here. We started an article while the "breaking news" cycle was ongoing. And continue to post snippets from that news cycle, as a form of roller/feed, to this title.

While I understand that other-stuff-does/doesn't-exist type arguments are a double-edged sword (though "OSE" can indicate established precedent/consensus), I don't understand how this accident is more notable than the two fatal (general aviation) crashes in 2019. For example. In terms of WP:WITHIN, I note that the 2009 (military) PC9 crash is covered in other lists and articles. And the 2022 (general aviation) Newtownards crash is covered in the Newtownards Airport article. Not as a standalone article. Which is in keeping with WP:AIRCRASH. Other (older) crashes are also covered WITHIN the articles on the areas in which they occurred (e.g. Cnoc na Péiste and Croaghgorm).

If there are opinions either way, and in particular an argument as to how WP:NOTNEWS doesn't apply (or is superceded by notability) here, then it'd be great to hear them. I personally think I must have overlooked something - because I don't see how independent notability has been established.... Guliolopez (talk) 19:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Second all of the above - this is just a single tragic incident, not an encyclopedia point for the ages. PROD? SeoR (talk) 20:17, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think PROD (procedural deletion) is the best approach. As it doesn't seem to be uncontroversial. As, for example, someone even removed the tag highlighting the concern and signposting this discussion. Since restored. Personally I think that much of this article's content could be summarised and merged somewhere (perhaps to Killucan or Raharney or 2024 in Ireland or similar). And a redirect, to that merged content, retained. My main goal, in advancing this thread, was to prompt discussion (even consensus) for a redirect target. Or other alternative to deletion. Guliolopez (talk) 20:36, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Messing with the pointer was an odd action, indeed, and this one *clearly* fails vs. NOTNEWS, etc. We do have articles on people and events which are once-off but there have to be extra factors for that. I am sure it would fall at AfD but OK, not a PROD case. I don't see it rising to the level of 2024 in Ireland, but it could rate a brief mention, as a rare kind of accident, in the article of Killucan or Raharney, yes. SeoR (talk) 22:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Crashes are routine, daily events mostly lacking notability, even when deaths occur. They mostly lack historical significance. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a newspaper.

This particular crash differs from routine road accidents only because of the mode of transport – the helicopter makes the event temporarily slightly sensational, but not otherwise significant or notable from an encyclopaedic perspective. While the death toll is regrettable, it is actually minor, therefore not notable enough to warrant attention from an encyclopaedia.

I support Guliolopez's arguments added above at 12:15 and 19:40 (UTC) on 31 July 2024, particularly the Wikipedia policy violations he identified.

There is a short account of the crash at 2024 in Ireland which, depending on perspective, is either sufficient to deal with this event, or even that that entry should be removed as well, because of the same doubts about notability.

It bears repeating, because the fact is so often glossed over, that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a newspaper. It is persuasive to note that this event would not appear in Encyclopaedia Britannica or any other encyclopaedia. We can leave this story where it belongs – in the newspapers. Spideog (talk) 22:56, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Quote: Personally I think that much of this article's content could be summarised and merged somewhere (perhaps to Killucan or Raharney or 2024 in Ireland or similar). Guliolopez 20:36, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The accident is mentioned appropriately and adequately in the Accidents and incidents section of the Bell 505 Jet Ranger X article. An accident which has not risen to general encyclopaedic notability doesn't warrant mentioning in the Killucan, Raharney, or 2024 in Ireland articles. (Anyway, which article, Killucan or Raharney? It happened in neither, but between them.) Spideog (talk) 23:42, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi. RE: "Anyway, which article, Killucan or Raharney? It happened in neither, but between them". In all honesty, this is the main reason I hadn't WP:BOLDly gone ahead with a summary/merge/redirect. Because, while we've titled the article "Killucan helicopter crash", and many of the sources refer to Killucan (either Killucan village or Killucan parish), the crash site is closer to Raharney village. And its GAA grounds. Unless this discussion results in a clear consensus (that a redirect is appropriate and what the target of that redirect should be), I probably will ahead and open an AfD. As AfDs tend to be more structured and a bit more definitive in their outcomes. Guliolopez (talk) 16:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

We should save our energies by avoiding the secondary "Killucan or Raharney?" question. The real, primary question is if the article should be removed. The other is a distraction, and will become moot if the article disappears.

Even as I raised the question of the location, I felt I was waffling a little, away from the question we ought to focus on. It was just a throwaway afterthought that I stuck inside parentheses (now I regret mentioning it!). The location question would only be worth addressing if the article survives. Spideog (talk) 20:37, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Has an AfD been opened?

Is there a discussion about this article under way at AfD? If the topic has been raised there, then we're wasting our time by flapping our gums on this talk page when we will just have to repeat our views all over again at that forum, copying and pasting our remarks from here to AfD. Spideog (talk) 21:05, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

OK. While I was really hoping the article's creator would weigh-in here before I did so, I've opened Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Killucan helicopter crash. Guliolopez (talk) 17:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jackwagsy and SeoR: Pinging interested parties: A formal deletion proposal for this article has been initiated by Guliolopez at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Killucan helicopter crash, if you want to contribute to the discussion. Spideog (talk) 00:31, 3 August 2024 (UTC)