Talk:Killing of Atatiana Jefferson

Requested move 14 May 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to Move. See closing comments at bottom. (non-admin closure) AzureCitizen (talk) 17:32, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

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• Killing of Atatiana Jefferson → Shooting of Atatiana Jefferson
• Killing of Edmund Perry → Shooting of Edmund Perry
• Duncan Lemp killing → Shooting of Duncan Lemp

– For consistency and reduced sensationalism. See Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States. That has 44 × "Shooting of" and only 2 × "Killing of". All of those are about people killed by shooting. Note that there was a previous RM six months ago for this page where I started the discussion, but no actual statistics were offered in that prior discussion, and there was a lack of consensus declared (in a non-admin closure) despite there being only one expression of opposition to the move and two supporting expressions. Note that there is also a related active RM discussion at Talk:Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery. See also Shooting of Trayvon Martin, Shooting of Michael Brown, Shooting of Markeis McGlockton, Talk:Shooting of Terence Crutcher#Requested move 23 November 2019, and Talk:Shooting of Patrick Harmon#Requested move 24 November 2019). —BarrelProof (talk) 02:09, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose The fact that they were shot and not stabbed or clubbed is irrelevant. What matters is that they were killed. FollowTheSources (talk) 02:40, 14 May 2020 (UTC)— Comment by blocked editor struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE.
  • May I assume you would suggest renaming all those "Shooting of X" articles? —BarrelProof (talk) 06:20, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

There are many "Killing of" articles already, and it would be ideal if we were consistent. While that's a fine longer-term goal, I think the scope of this poll is limited to just these three. So, yes, I do support these three being renamed to "Killing of". FollowTheSources (talk) 14:43, 14 May 2020 (UTC)— Comment by blocked editor struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE.

• Support per nom. Love of Corey (talk) 08:16, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nomination, per Love of Corey and, indeed, per consistency.

As I mentioned at Talk:Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery#Requested move 12 May 2020, English Wikipedia has numerous main title headers under six forms — "Murder of..." [following conviction and sentence], "Killing of..." [homicide, other than by shooting, with or without conviction and sentence], "Shooting of..." [usually, but not exclusively, fatal], "Assassination of..." [killing (primarily premeditated murder) of a public figure], "Lynching of..." [almost entirely used as main headers of articles delineating historical mob actions from decades ago] and "Death of..." [all other deaths, including non-violent historical events, such as Death of Ludwig van Beethoven].

The three main headers nominated in this RM are inconsistent with generally accepted header forms for this type of content and "Duncan Lemp killing" is inconsistent even as far as the basic form of its header in concerned. Possibly as a reflection of the acceptance of "Killing of..." headers, a number of nominations featuring these forms have become akin to uncontroversial technical requests — passing with only a single vote — as in the case of the mentioned-in-the-nomination Killing of Patrick Harmon → Shooting of Patrick Harmon or Death of Randolph Evans → Shooting of Randolph Evans at Talk:Shooting of Randolph Evans#Requested move 14 October 2019.

In fact, a number of Wikipedians, such as User:Lapisphil, User:Deborahjay, User:Brainulator9, User:Layzner or User:Haxwell at Talk:Shooting of Yoshihiro Hattori#Requested move 16 October 2018 agree that death as a result of gun violence is a very specific aspect of victimhood and needs to be highlighted as a separate form of killing. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:47, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support all 3 per nom, especially Duncan Lemp killing, though I will note that my reason for voting how I did was based on the firearm use taking precedence over the death. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 00:49, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support The name should be Shooting Of... for reasons mentioned above, especially, but not exclusively, as described by Roman Spinner. Haxwell (talk) 05:24, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support per WP:CONSISTENT for consistency with other similar articles. Rreagan007 (talk) 06:12, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support in the interest of consistency. WWGB (talk) 06:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – Per COMMONNAME. On Google, "Killing of Atatiana Jefferson" for example has 2X as many results. Wikipedia is operating in a vacuum to force this title for consistency that was established for no reason. These people were killed. This is so racist. How can no one see that. (I know Duncan Lemp was white.)--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 09:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

• There are WP:BLP concerns in attributing bad intent to living persons, and "killing" implies bad intent. Rreagan007 (talk) 15:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't even imply intent to kill, much less bad intent. FollowTheSources (talk) 15:07, 15 May 2020 (UTC)— Comment by blocked editor struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE.

It most certainly can imply intent to kill: "killing--an act in which someone is deliberately killed"[1]. Also, I don't think that WP:COMMONNAME really applies in this situation as "Killing of" vs "Shooting of" vs "Death of" are just title descriptors. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:17, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support - Support all moves in the interest of consistency. --Jax 0677 (talk) 15:56, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support: for all the reasons above which can be summarized as it is a more neutral title. Toddst1 (talk) 16:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment. Why would multiple WP:MOVEs be discussed at this article's Talk page? A "move" is pertinent to one article. These should be discussed on their respective pages. This discussion should only be about the Killing of Atatiana Jefferson article. Bus stop (talk) 13:58, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting multiple page moves. WWGB (talk) 14:05, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

There are page move notifications at the top of all three articles, with links that direct back here to this one discussion, so we needn't worry that editors who watch those pages will overlook this. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 14:09, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Obviously separate discussions are preferable. What is the argument for combining these 3 discussions? Possible title revisions should be specific to the article under consideration. Bus stop (talk) 14:17, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Separate discussions are not preferable. With regard to your concern, editors should take into account whether specific articles should be treated differently (if deviations are required) when they consider the multiple articles in question. Having the discussion in one place is better for consistency and overall visibility of the relevant arguments that affect all the articles. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 14:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, "editors should take into account whether specific articles should be treated differently". Why would the titles of these 3 articles be lumped together? From where are you deriving that these 3 articles should be treated alike as regards their titles? Based on what? I would compare this discussion to playing Three-dimensional chess. It is much more difficult than the standard version. Bus stop (talk) 14:48, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like you should make a "support" or "oppose" comment in this thread, and then make your best case argument as to which specific articles should be named the same or named differently, thus providing your reasoned input for everyone to consider in this centrally located discussion. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 15:04, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Why should these 3 articles be considered together? I hope that's not too difficult a question for you to address. You say "Separate discussions are not preferable." You are entitled to that view. And it may be a defensible view under some circumstances. But concerning these 3 articles, why would it be advantageous to discuss the titles of these 3 articles all at once? Bus stop (talk) 15:09, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

The reason these three articles should be considered together, in my opinion, is that I am proposing a consistent form for the title for all three of them (a title of the form "Shooting of") and because they are the only three articles in a large category that I noticed that clearly did not have that form. (I actually started only with the first two, and Duncan Lemp killing wasn't even in the category yet, but then I added the third one after noticing that it should be put in the category and that its title was also an outlier.) If I started three separate discussions, the people involved in the discussions would be jumping from Talk page to Talk page making the same type of comments in three different places, which would be annoying and time-consuming. It seems to have been a good decision, because the people who have commented so far don't seem to be advocating something different for each of the three titles. But that does sometimes happen in Wikipedia multi-page move discussions. Multi-page move proposals are quite common on Wikipedia when the motivation for changing the titles of several pages is the same, and consistency is desired. —BarrelProof (talk) 15:49, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

"If I started three separate discussions, the people involved in the discussions would be jumping from Talk page to Talk page making the same type of comments in three different places". That in and of itself is fascinating—it sounds like you feel that you already know the "type of comments" other editors would be making. Bus stop (talk) 16:10, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

If all main title headers of Wikipedia articles focusing upon individual deaths, both violent and non-violent, were to use the single form "Death of...", there would be no need for this discussion. However, as mentioned above, discussions such as the one at Talk:Shooting of Yoshihiro Hattori#Requested move 16 October 2018 have demonstrated that Wikipedians prefer more specific headers which differentiate between historical events, such as Death of Edgar Allan Poe, or non-shooting killings, such as Killing of Tim McLean, and deaths as a result of firearm use, as in the case of the three headers in question. Since all three were victims of gun violence, the same arguments are applicable in the formulation of their articles' main headers. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:18, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I did think I could anticipate the type of comments that other editors would be making – I thought the comments would be similar for all three of these articles. It is possible that my anticipation could be proven wrong, of course – that sometimes happens in multi-page move discussions, and it is part of the purpose of having a discussion. But so far, I think my anticipation has not been proven wrong. We will see what happens as the discussion proceeds further. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:49, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

From where do you (Roman Spinner) derive that "Since all three were victims of gun violence, the same arguments are applicable in the formulation of their articles' main headers"? That could properly be considered your proposal rather than something Wikipedia as a whole has agreed upon. Bus stop (talk) 16:53, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop, since among main title headers for Wikipedia articles are numerous ones that use the form "Shooting of..." and the three articles in question center upon shootings of those three individuals, the intuitive form for the headers of the three articles is, naturally, "Shooting of...". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:50, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

• Closing Comments: The closing !VOTE count was 9 comments in support, 1 comment opposed. Rationale for the one oppose was WP:COMMONNAME for one of the three affected articles (Killing of Atatiana Jefferson) and the sincerely held belief that moving the article's name would be racist. Consensus rationale for the supporting comments center around 1) Article Title WP:CONSISTENT policy with regard to existing "Shooting of..." and "Killing of..." articles titles, and 2) the greater specificity that "Shooting of..." affords over "Killing of...", as killing by gun violence is a specific aspect of victimhood and some editors believe it should be highlighted as it's own form of killing. 1 Additional editor commented to provide their opinion that separate RM procedures were preferable to a collective RM discussion for the three articles, but there was no support from other participants in the discussion and the RM was a properly formatted multiple page request move with header notices posted on all three articles. Editors who disagree with the outcome here may want to immediately launch another solo RM on a given article if they feel that article's situation is unique and warrants reconsideration, especially if there are additional facts that were not considered in this collective RM discussion. For the foregoing reasons, non-admin closing now as Consensus to Move. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 17:32, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Self defense

Jefferson had a gun and was pointing it towards the window/cops, so why is this murder instead of self defense? Someone explain this to me otherwise it seems like anti cop bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.161.8.90 (talk) 01:48, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Move

I've moved per policy at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths). The page had originally been at that title and was moved to "Shooting of" to be consistent with other similar pages, but this naming convention should change such pages to this language. —valereee (talk) 14:25, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

"Welfare check" vs "open structure"

As has been brought to light at trial, contrary to news reports, the officers were not performing a "Welfare check", but were responding to an "open structure" call. This is a a critical distinction as it has impact on what the police policy is for response to these calls. 66.193.4.146 (talk) 15:06, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Sisters death

I added before that her sister Amber Carr who is her nephews mother died in January 2023 then it was removed by user:WWGB who said it was irrelevant to the page but if it is not relevant than how are her parents deaths relevant? Startrain844 (talk) 18:15, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

They're not and I don't see them mentioned in the article. Can you point me to the part that mentions them? EvergreenFir (talk) 18:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh sorry I didn’t notice that they were removed before. Lol Startrain844 (talk) 18:45, 17 October 2023 (UTC)