Talk:Kikkuli

[Untitled]

Much of this seems to be reproduced from a downloadable - but copyrighted - book called The Kikkuli Method of Horse Training by Anne Nyland. [1] I think we need to separate the linguistic issues from the history and the horse training. No time now. 11:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Humm. Nyland herself may be the editor. I have just reorganised the text and tweaked it. Paul B 16:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Is this article suggesting that poor horse-training was a factor to the Fall of the Hittite Empire? I get that feeling upon reading it. The Behnam 07:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

That seems to be Ms Nyland's view. Paul B 10:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think that it shouldn't be included here. Her works are in the reading sections, so we don't need to be extending her hypothesis on this page. I removed the most-offending sentence for now, but I may take out more as time goes on. The Behnam 18:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Considering that the article consists of references to Nyland, it is perfectly reasonable to state what her conclusions were.

It is irresponsible not to.

Varlaam (talk) 16:13, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Nyland and Nyland

You have Nyland 1993 and Nyland 2009 and yet the page referencing does not distinguish the edition being referenced.
Varlaam (talk) 16:16, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Nyland

Nyland is self-published - see WP:SPS. I've restored the pre-Nyland version, keeping the categories, etc. Dougweller (talk) 19:24, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Not by what I can see [2], and she happens to be a respected translator who actually has studied the text. What is your evidence that this is self-published? I am going to restore the text pending further discussion. I note that the article needs work, but when you toss half the sources, that doesn't help. Montanabw^(talk) 00:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Please show good faith here, we've worked together before. "Smith and Stirling"? Have you any evidence at all that they meet our criteria at WP:RS or that they've published anything else besides her books and a couple of pretty flaky religious books[3]? See Study New Testament for Lesbians, Gays, Bi, and Transgender, [4]. No way does this meet our criteria. Dougweller (talk) 10:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Will show good faith, just did a BRD. The tags were a better choice than deletion. But why the COI? Was Nyland contributing or something? Montanabw^(talk) 20:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC) Follow up: realized I also confused her with Ann Hyland, who is an RS on medieval horse stuff. Montanabw^(talk) 20:51, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

The content was clearly originally added by someone... close to Nyland (but that was many years ago). In its earliest form some rather OTT claims were made - essentially that Kikkuli "made" the Hititte empire. Originally this was added by an ip in 2006 [5]. There was extensive discussion of Nyland and her experiment. Much of it was trimmed and then footnotes were rather clumsily added by single-purpose account User:Kikkuli2001, an editor with an emotional investment in the topic [6]. I can't legitimately object to removal of the self-published stuff. While Nyland has genuinely scholarly publications, they are not extensive. Paul B (talk) 21:07, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments and sources

Parking here for future article improvement:

• http://www.lrgaf.org/Peter_Raulwing_The_Kikkuli_Text_MasterFile_Dec_2009.pdf (Looks like scholarly article of use) Added by Montanabw^(talk) 00:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Although this is self-published in effect, Raulwing has had a book published by Brill, an academic press and Amazon says he has "studied Historical Comparative Linguistics, Indo-Iranian Languages and Near Eastern Archaeology at the Universities of Bonn, Cologne and Saarbrücken." So yes, this would be ok, use it directly but don't use Nyland. Dougweller (talk) 10:29, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Tags & note that Smith and Stirling is "the home of Dr A. Nyland Ministries"

Kikkuli Research and Maryannu press only publish Nyland's books, clearly self-published. And I'm confident that there is a conflict of interest in the edits by Kikkuli2001 - if anyone disagrees they can email me but the connection is obvious if you look. I'm not happy that the material that I removed has been restored without showing that these books weren't self-published. Back to Smith and Stirling - it's great that they publish books that conflict with the religious right, but they seem to have only published 3 authors and are basically a religious publishing house.[7]. Ah, another dig into the Wayback archives[8] explains all, it seems as though "This is the home of Dr A. Nyland Ministries". Dougweller (talk) 10:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

As you know self-publication is not really a problem if the author can be independently established as an expert. That, I think, would depend on reviews of the books in relevant periodicals. If Nyland's work has been published in RS it may also help to establish that she is a legitimate expert. I would prefer to retain the material if possible, since it provides valuable content of the article. There certainly is evidence that she has published in scholarly journals Ann Nyland, “Penna- and parḫ- in the Hittite Horse Training Texts”, Journal of Near Eastern Studies 51, 1992, pp. 293–296.. There's also “De Kikkuli-Trainingsmethode voor Paarden: De Kikkuli-Text in de Praktijk”, Phoenix 39, 1993, pp. 57–65 {though I've no idea what kind of journal Phoenix is}. Paul B (talk) 16:35, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I can't find the Phoenix article except in Raulwing. I looked at this one[9] but couldn't find the article. So we have her JNES article which we can use and Raulwing. I don't think we have enough evidence to show that we can use her self-published books. I'd suggest using material from Raulwing and her JNES article. Isn't that a reasonable compromise? Dougweller (talk) 16:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I am good with considering sources on a case by case basis. I can't access the full article online, but JNES is clearly OK with me. Glad that other source I found will work. Found one brief bio/review site on her here: [10]. WIll grant that she does seem a little flaky: [11] but OTOH, here's better info.(Except that the Hittites did NOT ride "Arabians" as they are known today) These sources also suggest that her translation of the text which let to her book was originally a doctoral thesis, which we have used in the past, have we not? If I can verify that, would it "rehab" that work? Montanabw^(talk) 20:48, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Hm, I see that "As part of her doctoral thesis, Dr. Ann Nyland employed a translator for the text and then recreated the training method with actual horses. In the end, Nyland was shocked that some of the culling techniques were real indicators of potential weaknesses in horses that would make them unsuitable for the Hittite needs. She also discovered that many of the techniques were actually effective means of training and conditioning horses for endurance".[12]. This confirms my impression that she isn't qualified in Hittite (she is qualified in Greek studies). So I'd like to avoid her doctoral dissertation as well and stick with peer reviewed material. It isn't as though there aren't a number of reliable sources to draw upon. The problem is that Nyland herself added her material to this article. Dougweller (talk) 10:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Other sources

In a 2002 book I find: "d). Training of chariot horses. Several reccent publications concentrate on the famous Kikkuli treatise. Fundamental is still Annelies Kammenhuber's work on the subject (Hippologia hethitica. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 1961). Her interpretation is supported by Valentin Horn, Das Pferd im alien Orient. Das Streitivagenpferd der Friihzeii in seiner Umwelt, im Training und im Vergleich zum neuzeitlichen DistanzRett- und Fahrpferd. Hildesheim: Olms 1995. A new intcq>rctation is ofTcrcd by Frank Starke, Ausbildung und Traimmg von Streiticagenpferden. Fine hippologisch ori- entierte Interpretation des Kikkuli- Trxtes. Studien zu den Rogazkoy- Tex ten, 41. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 1995, uncritically adopted by Emilia Masson, L'art de soigner et d'entrainer Us chevaux. Texte hittite du maitre ecuyer Kikkuli. Lausanne: Favrc 1998, and rcccntly by Birgit Brandau and Hartmut Sicklcr, Hethiter: Die unbekannte Weltmacht. Munchen: Piper 2001, chap- ter 16). The historial background, as well ;is the history of research are discussed by Peter Raulwing and Rudigcr Schmitt, "Zur ct>mologi- schen Beurteilung der Brrufshezcichnung assussanni des Pfcrdctrainers Kikkuli von Mittani", in: Anrcitcr, Bartosicwitz, Jcrcm and Meid 1998 (see above, 3, c), 675-706. Critical remarks on new inteqire- tations of the Kikkuli treatise have been made by Raulwing, "Ncucrc Forschungen zum Kikkuli-Text. Eine klcine Bestandsaulnahmc trainingsinhaltlicher Intcrprctationcn zu CTH 284 vicr Jahrzehnte nach A. Kammenhubers Hippoloma HethiUcain Peter Anreiter and ..."[13].

A quick search shows [14], [15] which discusses Kammenhuber, Kammenhuber herself at [16], [17] - not sure if that's a RS though. [18] and so on. In other words, we have a choice between an article basically written by a writer most of whose books are self-published and who can't translate Hittite herself, or with a little work an article which has a number of reliable sources. Dougweller (talk) 10:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I see your point. I suppose when there is more on Kikkuli himself, we could pop in a bit of her stuff under the rubric of "a modern person tried these methods and they worked..." I was also confusing her with Ann Hyland, the medievalist. Mea culpa and trout all around Montanabw^(talk) 00:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

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The word "Vrutham" is still being used for "Circle" in Sanskrit based ancient languages like Telugu

Telugu is Dravidian, not IE. Correct phrasing would be akin to "Sanskrit-derived aryan languages and those influenced by it, such as dravidan/telugu", or some such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.175.218.53 (talk) 06:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)