Talk:Kenneth Williams/Archive 1

Archive 1

!

Is there a particular reason for the exclamation mark in "Inspector Truscott (!)."? Mintguy

English

Okay, *I* always thought KW was English, and he was apparently born in England according to this article, but in the last twenty seconds or so of this clip here he specifically says he's not English and claims to be Welsh. What's with that? Marnanel 04:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I assume he has welsh ancestry - Williams is very much a Welsh name Gavin Bl 10:23, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Given that his father was a Williams and his mother born a Morgan, he was of Welsh ancestry on both sides. I recall him mentioning in one book that an early (stage?) review had described him as, 'Young Welsh actor Kenneth Williams', and saying that technically, it was correct. 62.172.185.126 (talk) 14:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I can't view the YouTube at the moment (this PC won't allow me to), but I will later. However, I would guess the article says English as he was born, grew up and lived in England his entire life. I also don't really recall him having an English accent.--UpDown (talk) 08:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I've just seen that clip to and he clearly says he's Welsh. I'm not sure he was speaking very good Welsh though. Maybe someone could comment.

He's joking because Williams is such a Welsh name. He used to joke and exaggerate a lot about himself. Dean B (talk) 23:56, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Both Williams' mother and father were Welsh. See the Mavis Nicholson interview on YouTube where he talks about this at length.98.108.92.234 (talk) 17:06, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Citation needed

The article claims a citation is needed for "He once proposed a cellibate marriage to Joan Sims...". I haven't read the diaries, but a scene in which he proposes a celibate marriage to Joan Sims is in Kenneth Williams: Fantabulosa - which is on BBC Four as I write. 87.114.143.205 21:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

"Eponymous"

Regarding a recent edit, AskOxford defines "eponymous" as "(of a person) giving their name to something" and "(of a thing) named after a particular person". Parkinson is therefore correctly described. Chris 42 (talk) 19:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

No. If Michael Parkinson had an 'eponymous' TV show it would be called 'Michael Parkinson', not 'Parkinson'. Parkinson is therefore not correctly described. Pfistermeister (talk) 04:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

But the show is named after its host, so how else would you describe it? Chris 42 (talk) 11:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't 'describe it' as anything, old bean: the context doesn't require attention to be drawn to an inexact relationship like that! And yes, the show is named after its host, and Parkinson would be 'the show's eponymous presenter' in situations where you refer to him by his surname alone. But 'Michael Parkinson' is not what the show is called, so the word eponymous doesn't apply in the para we're discussing! Can't you see this? In the case of the film 'Nixon', it would be okay to say that 'Antony Hopkins is the eponymous President', but only because of the exactitude of the reference... Pfistermeister (talk) 12:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't share your reasoning, Pfistermeister. Are not Washington (DC) and Washington (state) two of George Washington's many eponyms? These places don't have to be called "George Washington" in order to be eponyms of George Washington. The vast, vast majority of eponymous namings are of the surname alone - Mt McKinley, the Murray River, the Hume Highway, the Monroe Doctrine, the Kennedy Center, "Oprah", etc etc. "Parkinson" is clearly named after its host, Michael Parkinson, and is thus eponymous. That's the issue here - the fact that it's named after somebody, not that the title chosen necessarily exactly matches the person's full name. This would still be true even if it were called "Parky". -- JackofOz (talk) 12:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree as well. I can't find any dictionary definition that states that the full name must be used. Many define it as "derived from" or "related to". Also, if the reader had never heard of Michael Parkinson (and therefore his chat show) the expression "Michael Parkinson's chat show, Parkinson" contains needless repetition. "Michael Parkinson's eponymous chat show" communicates the show's name just as concisely without the iteration. Chris 42 (talk) 18:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Revues

"One Leg Too Few" was in One Over The Eight, not Pieces Of Eight (it even says so in the One Leg Too Few article). However I'm sick of correcting things only for some ignoramus to restore the original untruth, so I'm just going to mention it here and hope that if anyone is looking up the info and needs to know this sort of thing, they'll read the talk page as well. (And if that's you, hello! Aren't talk pages great? Much better than the articles themselves, in my opinion. And page histories are great too, even if it is - and it is - a bit annoying to have to trawl through to find out the info you actually want to know.) -88.111.15.35 (talk) 09:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree in toto with all these remarks. 121.44.224.110 (talk) 22:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose we merge The Kenneth Williams Diaries with this page. The content of the diaries seems to be mostly replicated within this article.

Perhaps a small section within this page about the diaries would be sufficient as opposed to their own page.

Your thoughts..... Lukeyboyuk (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

the current article on the Diaries is almost entirely a biography of Williams anyway so I agree. I'll have a go at writing a small section on the Diaries for this page unless anyone else tries first. Dean B (talk) 23:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Also agree - there's very little material in the diaries article that's not covered in the main biographical article. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Also agreeing on the merger- the diary article contains nothing that could not be said, or is not already noted, in the main article. --Elton Lear (talk) 13:27, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree too. The diaries article doesn't actually include much about the diaries. Earldelawarr (talk) 11:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Me too. So why wait? Rothorpe (talk) 01:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I've put the contents of The Kenneth Williams Diaries article in where marked - it lasts until what is now the second 'Sources' section. It needs a large amount of pruning, which I'll start on later... Rothorpe (talk) 17:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, that didn't last very long! You have been warned! So, I'm putting in a link to the diaries article. Rothorpe (talk) 02:16, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Kind of an old discussion, but I just found the diary article while Googling the book and wondered why it had an article of its own. Most of the content in that article was a very basic biography of Williams and had little to do with the book itself. As such, I think the original consensus should be upheld and I've redirected the article back here. If there's a problem with that, it should be discussed on the talk page instead of just reverting back with no explanation. Pinkadelica^♣ 13:08, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Accidental death

"On October 14, 1962 Williams' father, Charles, was taken to hospital after drinking carbon tetrachloride that had been stored in a cough mixture bottle. ... The coroner's court recorded a verdict of accidental death..." If ever I want to murder someone, England is the place to do it. PiCo (talk) 23:20, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Health problems

At the time of his death it was also reported that Kenneth Williams was a very heavy smoker and the nicotine had irritated his stomach ulcers,........ Is it possible that this may have weakened his resistance to barbiturates?AT Kunene (talk) 09:56, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Homosexuality

'It has been suggested that he was a repressed homosexual': possibly the (unintentionally) funniest line I've read in a Wikipedia article. You might as well say 'It has been suggested that Adolf Hitler may have been less than tolerant of Jews'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.91.64.11 (talk) 12:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

His uber-campiness and overall demeanour would lead many people to instantly assume he was homosexual. Problem is, we have next to no actual ... what do you call that stuff ... evidence, that's it. Being camp is not, in itself, evidence of homosexuality. Keeping one's private sexual activities extremely private is also not evidence that they must have been homosexual in nature. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:39, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting that there is no 'evidence' (I have heard of the word) that Williams was homosexual? A cursory trawl through his published diaries, not to mention the reminiscences of everyone who knew him, plus numerous print and televised biographies, should provide, I think, what you are looking for... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.206.157 (talk) 23:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I heard that he and Charlie Hawtrey were chasing Barbara Windsor around the Carry On sets like a couple of rutting stags. And Joe Orton had a bit of an eye for the ladies. --OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 17:31, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Funny how all the sex is Orton and Williams' diaries is with men...but apparently that's not 'evidence'. The line about 'it has been suggested he (Williams) was a repressed homosexual' is ludicrous. The man's own diaries are full of graphic references to a far from repressed sexual career with men. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 19:25, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I actually knew Keneth Williams for a while in the early 1970's (and foolishly played Scrabble with him on a couple of occasions - no one that I know ever beat him) and I can state that he was not as repressed as a homosexual as is made out. But this would be original research. 109.153.242.10 (talk) 17:26, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the phrase 'It has been suggested that he was a repressed homosexual' would suggest to an uninformed reader that there might be some doubt as to whether he was homosexual at all, rather than whether his homosexuality was repressed or overt. Since he clearly was homosexual - and since his homosexuality affected his entire life - the line remains ludicrous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.203.66 (talk) 00:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the antiquated-sounding sentence. Rothorpe (talk) 00:17, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

What about the line "A psychoanalytical examination of Williams's diaries suggests that the underlying cause of his repressed sexuality could be his life-long struggle with depression and feelings of worthlessness." Surely that should be the other way around, his repressed (at least publicly) sexuality is likely to be the cause of his depression... As it stands it's quite a claim that he repressed his sexuality because he was unhappy, surely he repressed it because it was an illegal taboo that could have ended his career in those less enlightened times. 144.32.128.51 (talk) 16:21, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Quite so, and as it added nothing, I've removed that too. Rothorpe (talk) 20:13, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Diaries and biographies

Is is necessary to identify the actual physical size of each of his diaries? It sounds as if it were written by someone suffering from OCD.154.5.40.122 (talk) 10:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Were Kenneth Williams' parents born in Wales?

The article states that Kenneth Williams was English, of "Welsh parentage". I know he was born in England, so the first part is fine, but were his parents born in Wales? That is the only thing that could truly constitute "Welsh parentage". I have read that the family had "Welsh roots" but that is entirely different. Reliable citation needed for this assertion.

(86.133.124.148 (talk) 17:17, 24 April 2015 (UTC))

Representations of Williams

Hi was portrayed in the 1987 film Prick Up Your Ears, about Joe Orton, which was directed by Stephen Frears. He appears in the North African holiday episode. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.212.137.117 (talk) 16:18, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Albums

I've added an external link for "On Pleasure Bent". This seems to be about the only online information available on this album, and hopefully meets WP's criteria for linking - as far as I can tell the site is owned by Barry Booth himself and operates within copyright. Threefoursixninefour (talk) 09:31, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Kenneth Williams's Parents - Born In London

Mother: Louisa Morgan, born St Pancras, London

Father: Charles Williams, born Somers Town, London

Source: 'Born Brilliant' - authorised biography of Kenneth Williams, by Christopher Stevens, published 2010.

There are suggestions of Welsh lineage further back in the family, but exactly how much and how far back has not so far been researched. But Kenneth Williams cannot truthfully be said to have been of "Welsh parentage" as this article previously claimed.

(81.153.29.79 (talk) 22:51, 30 April 2015 (UTC))

This sentence...

The flat in Osnaburgh Street in which Williams had lived from 1972 until his death was bought by Rob Brydon and Julia Davis for the writing of their comedy series Human Remains.

... puzzles me. They bought a flat JUST to write a comedy series in? What panache! What cash!

Or did they rather FILM the series there? Bought and used it as a location? 121.44.224.110 (talk) 22:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

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Comedian

The article currently has categories Category:English male comedians and Category:LGBT comedians, But these are only two places in the entire article where the word "comedian" appears. This doesn't seem quite right. Any comments (or even constructive suggestions)? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2017 (UTC) p.s. "... this is a stick up... you are supposed to be terrified of my threats..."

Well, either we reliably source "comedian" in the text, or we kill the cats. p.s...sticks, the Carry On way. Cassianto^Talk 20:11, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:27, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

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