Talk:Kazimierz Łyszczyński

Was he an atheist?

This article doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Did Łyszczyński actually write a book called De non existentia Dei, "presenting reality from an atheistic perspective"? A figure such as Baron d'Holbach makes sense as one of the first atheists - as an enlightenment philosopher immersed in the French deist movement of the 18th century, but a 17th century Polish nobleman? I can accept Łyszczyński scrawling "therefore there is no god" as a joke in the margin of a theological treatise and getting into trouble for it. I can also imagine his accusers inventing a list of atheistic charges. Are there any scholars who actually think he was an atheist and actually wrote a treatise on the subject? Singinglemon (talk) 18:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

To answer your questions, Łyszczyński wrote a treatise called De non existentia Dei; the excerpts that survive are in the article.

Baron d'Holbach was not the "first atheist", neither was Łyszczyński. Atheists have existed for thousands of years. And no where in the article is Łyszczyński called the "first atheist".

That Łyszczyński was a 17th century Polish nobleman does not prevent him from being atheist.

I have seen no evidence to suggest that his writing of "ergo non est Deus" was a joke or that the charges were made up; where did you get this from?

And yes there are scholars who think he was an atheist. See the list of references.

I would also like to point out that although few English speakers know of Łyszczyński, he is known within many Polish Atheist circles.selfworm^Talk) 03:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay first of all, I was referring to the first expression of atheism in Christian Europe. I should have made that clear, my mistake.

The idea that the writing of "ergo non est Deus" was a joke is from the very lengthy Skorobohaty 1840 reference which you added to the article on the 1 July 2008: "he added on the margin the following words - ergo non est Deus, evidently ridiculing the arguments of the author." Skorobohaty goes on to say that Lyszczynski was denounced "as an atheist, delivering, as evidence of his accusation, a copy of the work with the above-mentioned annotation." This is a completely plausible story, and it does not correspond to the main text of this article. Skorobohaty makes no mention of there being a separate treatise on atheism.

I think that being a 17th century European makes it highly unlikely that Lyszczynski was an atheist. I admit that I cannot say that it's impossible, but given how incredibly unusual it would be (who else in 17th century Europe was an atheist?) this article needs to be correct. And that is why I flagged it. This article requires good evidence.

[grig035] Hi -- grig035 here. If I may interject, it is indeed quite rare for there to be an atheist -- a self-proclaimed one anyway! -- in 17th-century Christian Europe. But we do know of at least two: Lucilio Vanini of the early 17th century, executed in Toulouse in 1619 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucilio_Vanini), and Matthias Knutzen, a German thinker who wrote three explicit pamphlets advocating atheism and terming himself a "conscientist" (his followers were termed "Geivissener"), who believed that every man's conscience was sufficient to enforce decency toward one's fellow man (http://www.archive.org/stream/shorthistoryoff02robeiala/shorthistoryoff02robeiala_djvu.txt & http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_Knutzen). God was not necessary for conscience, wrote Knutzen, God being a fiction.

Knutzen is a contemporary of Lyszczynski, having written his three pamphlets in the 1670s. Knutzen was not executed, so far as we know, but we do lose all trace of him after the 1670s, and the authorities may have caught up with him after all. We just don't know.

Personally, I'm inclined to feel that, in the absence of any further information, we have to take Lyszczynski at his word when he claims at his trial that what he wrote were sections of a planned dialogue between two opposed debaters. Skepticism as to his sincerity is surely understandable, given the terrifying circumstances, but he is quoted directly as saying that what he wrote was intended as a debate between an atheist and a Catholic, and thus the atheist's remarks were taken out of context. This is different from Knutzen's pamphlets, which are unequivocally written in Knutzen's own voice.

So yes, there are at least two 17th-century European atheists -- Vanini and Knutzen -- and, ironically, Lyszczynski _may_ not be a third (or at least the claim for his atheism is less certain). [/grig035] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grig035 (talk • contribs) 16:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

As for the list of references provided for this article, they repeatedly refer to papers by one "A. Nowicki." This is not a diverse list of sources. I would like to know if other reputable Polish historians also agree with the account of the events mentioned in the article. I can find no English language books which describe his treatise. There are sources which mention how "Lyszczynski, accused of atheism, was executed," and this statement I have no problem with. Singinglemon (talk) 17:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello Singinglemon. Let me first make a few points. Any given person from 17ty century Europe is an unlikely candidate to be an atheist, but unlikely does not mean impossible. We must look at the historical facts relating to Łyszczyński to see whether or not he was indeed an atheist.

Also, "ridiculing the arguments" and making "a joke", although related in some ways, are not one and the same.

Unfortunately, his religious beliefs may never be known. Łyszczyński wrote De non existentia Dei about fifteen years before his execution (it was of course never published). During his trial he claimed that the work was to be about a Catholic and an atheist having a debate, in which the Catholic would eventually win (he told the diet that the work would have had a different title from De non existentia Dei). The atheist was to speak first followed by the Catholic. He claimed that he only wrote the first half of the work (that is only the atheist's argument) and then stopped writing at the advice of a priest.

The story that Łyszczyński told the diet may be true, or it may have been fabricated as a futile attempt to prevent his execution. The overwhelming majority of the material that I have read on Łyszczyński states that he was indeed an atheist. And a minority states that we will never know.

As for his work, it was thrown into a flame during his execution. All that we have of it is what was recorded as evidence by the diet, which can be found in the main article.

Considering that the current consensus among historians is that Łyszczyński was an atheist, I think that the article should also refer to him as an atheist. But we should also include some information about the uncertainty of this statement. selfworm^Talk) 21:09, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a secondary meaning of the word joke meaning "something not to be taken seriously," that is all I meant. It never occurred to me that it would be read as something stronger than that. Maybe its just my regional British English, I don't know. Until someone points these things out, one tends not to spot these things. I shall endeavour to be more careful in the future.

Right then, on to matters of greater import. I think now we are making progress. You've just given a clearer, and better, account of the trial of Lyszczynski than currently exists in this article. If he was a 17th century atheist, then that is an extraordinary fact, but it may, as you say, be impossible to say for certain. I think the current sources for this article are inadequate: if Andrzej Nowicki is the main source, then he is just one person writing in a journal which apparently assisted in the "imposition of Atheism in Poland" (to quote a certain PDF file). I don't doubt the basic facts of this case, but I would like to see some evidence that there are other historians (and not just Soviet-era writers on atheism) who think he was an atheist. I agree that there should be a little bit of scepticism in this article, nothing you have said convinces me that he was an atheist, but perhaps I am prepared to concede that he might have been. Singinglemon (talk) 00:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I'am not a historian but I've found two more references on my bookshelf:

Paweł Jasienica "Polska anarchia" (ISBN 83-08-01970-6), Wydawnictwo Literackie, Kraków 1988 (p. 110)

Janusz Tazbir, "Historia Kościoła katolickiego w Polsce (1460 -1795)" (History of Catholic Church in Poland, 1460-1795) (1966)

Jasienica was "political dissident, for which he suffered government persecution." - so not some soviet writer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawe%C5%82_Jasienica

Like I said, I'm not a historian, so if you still don't belive in consensus among scholars you can ask yourself in small english section of polish biggest history forum: http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showforum=206 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.134.160.229 (talk) 15:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. Well I'm not a historian either, all I want are some references from other historians added to this article. If Paweł Jasienica and Janusz Tazbir make some statements about Kazimierz Łyszczyński, could you add a brief summary of what they say on the subject of his atheism to this article. That's all I'm asking for, some references other than Andrzej Nowicki. And then I'll remove the dispute tag. Singinglemon (talk) 17:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, well as promised, I've removed the dispute tag from the article. I have to say that, compared to Nowicki, I find Janusz Tazbir's words on the subject of the alleged atheism rather more non-committal: "Łyszczyński is thought to had written longer treatise on the existence of God, where he expressed his affection for atheism." In my mind it just confirms the view that Andrzej Nowicki got a bit carried away. Of course, my opinion doesn't matter in the slightest. It would be interesting to know if any historians have published papers or articles on Łyszczyński in the past twenty years or so. Singinglemon (talk) 20:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Category:People executed for heresy

Ummm, was I wrong to add that category? He was, I suppose, technically not a heretic... Atheism not being heresy as such...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.215.35.111 (talk) 17:17, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

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