Talk:Katō Kiyomasa

Moving text from Bushido page

I have been trying to editorialise the Bushido page, and I noticed there is a large section on Kato there as well as being an entry dedicated here. I propose that the text be moved here, rather than appearing twice. The text is as follows:--OzzieB 01:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Kato Kiyomasa was one of the most ferocious Samurai who ever lived. The son of a blacksmith, he joined Toyotomi Hideyoshi at age 18 and became legendary for his ferocity in combat, distinguishing himself at the battle of Shizugatake. A senior general, he was awarded lordship of Kumamoto castle in Higo at the age of 26.

Awarded a large fief of 250,000 koku in Higo province, Kato ruthlessly suppressed Christianity. A follower of Nichiren Buddhism, he soon came into conflict with the lord of a neighboring province, a Christian named Konishi Yukinaga. In 1592, Kato Kiyomasa led part of Hideyoshi's army in his campaigns in Korea--along side his rival, Lord Konishi. He occupied the city of Seoul and later crossed the Tumen River into China. Historian Stephen Turnbull describes the horror and destruction of the Korean Invasions in several of his books as seen through the eyes of the Priest Keinen who accompanied the samurai during the campaign. Keinen's diary "Korea Day by Day" was so controversial that it remained unpublished until 1965. Turnbull also described Kato Kiyomasa's motivation for attacking the Jurchens of Manchuria in 1592 was 'to show the savages the mettle of the Japanese'.

I have been researching the 日々記 "Chōsen Nichinichiki" (aka. 日日記 "Chōsen Hinikki"), and it is not until 1597 during the Second Invasion that Keinen goes to Korea. Further, he is in the company of Lord Hishū as his personal physician, not Katō Kiyomasa. Also, the circumstances surrounding the reason why "Chōsen Nichinichiki" remained unpublished for nearly a hundred years, after being rediscovered in the Meiji Period, is not something I have seen referenced anywhere, so making the claim that it was due to controversy should be backed up by a legitimate source. For reference to what I have mentioned, please look at "Elisonas, J. (2001). “Chōsen Hinikki (Korea Day by Day).” In De Bary, W., Keene, Donald, Tanabe, George, Gluck, Carol, Tiedemann, Arthur, & Tsunoda, Ryusaku (Eds.), Sources of Japanese Tradition, From earliest times to 1600 (2nd ed., Introduction to Asian Civilizations) (pp. 467-472). New York: Columbia University Press." and "Elisonas, J. (1991). “The inseparable trinity - Japan's relations with China and Korea.” In The Cambridge history of Japan. Volume 4, 235-300.".5.186.125.134 (talk) 20:56, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Kato stood poised to conquer all of Asia, but a Korean naval blockade prevented him from receiving reinforcements and provisions necessary to support his 150,000 man army.

In 1597, Kato again lead Hideyoshi's forces in Korea. The second invasion did not proceed well for the Samurai, but Kato's reputation for valor only increased. Surrounded at Yolsan, the Samurai army held out against incredible odds. Konishi Yukinaga had run into fierce fighting and tried to negotiate a peace treaty with the Korean and Chinese forces surrounding him.

Kato was infuriated by the surrender attempt and upon his return to Japan, he ravaged the Konishi family's neighboring domain in retaliation. Konishi was mercilessly executed in the aftermath of Sekigahara and his domain was awarded to Kato, bringing his total fiefdom to 540,000 koku.

Known for hunting tigers for sport armed with only a spear, the Koreans greatly feared Kato Kiyomasa and called him "Kishokan"--"The Devil General". William Scott Wilson describes Kato Kiyomasa thus: "He was a military man first and last, outlawing even the recitation of poetry, putting the martial arts above all else. His precepts show the single-mindedness and Spartan attitudes of the man, (they) demonstrate emphatically that the warrior's first duty in the early 17th century was simply to "grasp the sword and die." Contemporary accounts of Kato describe him as awe-inspiring, yet not unfriendly, and a natural leader of men."

Please show me where you get the idea of "Kishokan". It seems rootless story for most of Korean. Even it is not a Korean word. --221.140.109.74 11:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)--Alf 11:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Given the translation "The Devil General", it's likely to be 鬼将官 (鬼 = ghost, devil; 将官 = general, admiral). The Korean pronunciation would be 귀장관 (gwijanggwan, or something like that). -- pne (talk) 13:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Check the Japanese article on Katō Kiyomasa-- the nickname "demon general" is mentioned-

Japanese : 朝鮮の民衆から「鬼（幽霊）上官」といわれた (chōsen minshū kara "oni (yūrei) jōkan" to iwareta)

English translation : "...[he] was called the Demon (or Phantom) General [Oni (yūrei) jōkan] by the Koreans" -Tadakuni 01:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

"To All Samurai"?

I find it hard to believe that Lord Katō would issue an order to "all samurai," when he had no logical right to do so-- "all samurai" includes retainers of other clans, ronin, etcetera...does anyone have the original Japanese text of the Precepts? I think it's a matter of mistranslation, and that the original Japanese probably said something like Kacchū (家中), to "all in the house"-- meaning "all" of his samurai, and not "all samurai." -Tadakuni (talk) 17:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The translation was done by award winning author william scott wilson and the original text can be found in several books, including "Buke no Kakun". Kato wrote a handbook for warriors and it is well known. he addressed his men and a description apears here: Not all warriors advocated the study of literature as whole­heartedly as did Shiba Yoshimasa and Imagawa Ryoshun. However, the ideal of harmonizing the roles of the martial and literary man remained present throughout the medieval period of Japanese history. Kato Kiyomasa (1562-1611), in the following order to all of his samurai "regardless of rank," endorsed learning but placed strict limits on what was to be studied:

One should put forth effort in matters of Learning. One should read books concerning military matters, and direct his attention exclusively to the virtues of loyalty and filial piety. Reading Chi­nese poetry, linked verse, and waka is forbidden. One will surely become womanized if he gives his heart knowledge of such ele­gant and delicate refinements. Having been born into the house of a warrior, one's intentions should be to grasp the long and short swords and to die.

Concerning other refinements, Kato had this to say:

The practice of Noh dancing is absolutely forbidden.... A samu­rai who practices dancing—which is outside of the martial arts—should be ordered to commit seppuku

Kato was a soldier's soldier and a blacksmith's son, probably re­ceiving little courtly education, thus representing the opposite end of the spectrum from Shiba and Imagawa in both upbringing and outlook. Though their interpretations of the concept of learning may differ, it was never doubted by any one of these men that this ideal was an integral part of the warrior's life.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.204.111 (talk) 13:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC) 

Can you quote a section of the Japanese text? I'm afraid I can't find it online or in person. Furthermore, the passage you quote says that Katō addressed the code to his men, and not to "all" samurai...which confirms my suspicions. Do you have a page citation for the purposes of verification? Thank you. -Tadakuni (talk) 06:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

--i never disputed that he was addressing his men. We (Japanese historians)know this already.

--in his career, Kato had command over troops other than his own--during the Korea invasions for example, he was chosen to lead Hideyoshi's vanguard of 300,000 men, 150,000 0f which he had direct control. So please do not publish disinformation here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.204.111 (talk) 21:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What we would like to know is why are you trying to block publication of Kato's writings so that people at wikipedia can see a part of his persona? By making an issue of who his audience was, you are displaying a weakness of knowledge of Japanese history. You are also restricting valuable information from Wikipedia readers

for your information:

Gunsho Ruiju, Vol. 15. Tokyo: Keizai Zasshisha, 1895.

Kamiko, Tadashi. Busho Goroku. Tokyo: Hyakusen Shobo, 1970.

Koyama, Keiichi. Imagawa Ryoshun. Tokyo: Sanseido, 1945.

Kurihara, Arano. Koshu Hagakure. Kumamoto: Seichosha, 1975.

Shinko Gunsho Ruiju, Vols. 17, 21. Tokyo: Naigai Shoseki Kabushiki Kaisha, 1931.

Yutaka, Takeru et alia, gen. ed. Sengoku Shiryo Sosho. Tokyo: Jinbutsu Oraisha, 1966. Vols. 3, 4, 5, Koyogunkan.

Yoshida, Yutaka. Buke no Kakun. Tokyo: Tokuma Shoten, 1973.

Zoku Gunsho Ruiju, Vol. 21. Tokyo: Zoku Gunsho Ruiju Kansei­sha, 1924.

Zokuzoku Gunsho Ruiju, Vol. 10. Tokyo: Naigai Insatsu Kabu­shiki Kaisha, 1908.

KATO KIYOMASA (1562-1611)

ARTICLES CONCERNING WHICH ALL SAMURAI SHOULD BE RESOLVED, REGARDLESS OF RANK

"One should not be negligent in the way of the retainer. One should rise at four in the morning, practice sword technique, eat one's meal, and train with the bow, the gun, and the horse. For a well developed retainer, he should become even more so.

If one should want diversions, he should make them such outdoor pastimes such as falconing, deer hunting and wrestling.

For clothing, anything between cotton and natural silk will do. A man who squanders money for clothing and brings his household finances into disorder is fit for punishment. Generally one should further himself with armor that is appropriate for his social position, sustain his retainers, and use his money for martial affairs.

When associating with one's ordinary companions, one should limit the meeting to one guest and one host, and the meal should consist of plain brown rice. When practicing the martial arts, however, one may meet with many people.

As for the decorum at the time of a campaign, one must be mindful that he is a samurai. A person who loves beautification where it is unnecessary is fit for punishment.

The practice of Noh Drama is absolutely forbidden. When one unsheathes his sword, he has cutting a person down on his mind. Thus, as all things are born from being placed in one’s heart, a samurai who practices dancing, which is outside of the martial arts, should be ordered to commit seppuku.

One should put forth great effort in matters of learning. One should read books concerning military matters, and direct his attention exclusively to the virtues of loyalty and filial piety.

Reading Chinese poetry, linked verse, and waka(1) is forbidden. One will surely become womanized if he gives his heart knowledge of such elegant and delicate refinements.

Having been born into the house of a warrior, one's intentions should be to grasp the long and the short swords and to die.

If a man does not investigate into the matter of Bushido daily, it will be difficult for him to die a brave and manly death. Thus it is essential to engrave This business of the warrior into one's mind well.

The above conditions should be adhered to night and day. if there is anyone who finds these conditions difficult to fulfill, he should be dismissed, an investigation should be quickly carried out, it should be signed and sealed that he was unable to mature in the Way of Manhood, and he should be driven out. To this, there is no doubt."

TO ALL SAMURAI

Kato Kazuenokami Kiyomasa

NOTES:

1 Classical 31 Syllable Japanese Poetry. Also called Tanka or "Short Poetry." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.204.111 (talk) 21:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I personally was not the one who blocked or removed this text, someone else was. I simply wanted to clarify that detail in the hopes that it might move things along toward re-incorporating this passage into the article. Given your amazing list of resources, if you would like to reincorporate this text into the article, then please do so. Thank you. -Tadakuni (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Ulsan

The English Language link Battle of Ulsan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ulsan) in section "Kiyomasa during the Seven-Year War" seems to be about a naval battle not contemporary to Kiyomasa. I checked through the Japanese language page and saw that the battle noted has an English page named Siege of Ulsan so I replaced the link. Since my Japanese language skill is limited, I could be wrong too. I'll appreciate if someone could double check. Thanks. Eakka (talk) 09:20, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

In re: Battle of Ulsan

Kato Kiyomasa, near the close of the Seven Years' War was holding up in a fortification on a hill called Tosan at Ulsan and was beseiged in October by Ming General Ma Gui with 24,000 troops and 5,500 Korean troops under Kyongsang Army Commander Kim ung-so. Doc Rock ed4linda (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:47, 6 June 2011 (UTC).

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Inaccuracy in the Korean campaign part

"Kiyomasa held two Korean princes who had deserted as hostages and used them to force lower-ranking Korean officials to surrender." this part is either not entirely accurate, or at least open to contention. In the Seonjo Shillok vol. 26 (year 25, April 14th) it says, "命臨海君往咸鏡道, 金貴榮、尹卓然從行; 順和君 𤣰往江原道, 長溪府院君 黃廷彧與其子前承旨赫、同知李墍從行, 蓋赫女爲順和夫人, 墍居原州, 故竝遣之。 墍到江原道, 托病不從。 未幾, 倭入江原道, 故順和君亦踰嶺向北, 與臨海同行, 命金貴榮、黃廷彧協同護行" (emphasis added by me - http://sillok.history.go.kr/id/knb_12504014_023) Which means that Prince Imhae(臨海君) was ordered(命) to go(往) to Hamgyeong province(咸鏡道), and prince Sunhwa(順和君) was ordered to go to Gangwon province(江原道), but since the Japanese troops(倭) had entered(入) Gangwon, Prince Sunhwa had to flee north and go with Prince Imhae.

Considering they were sent with the officials they were sent with (former Minister of Defense, etc) and considering the fact that Crown Prince Gwanghae performed a similar role, given that they were ordered there, it is likely that the two princes were sent to drum up support and draft local men into the military to oppose the invading Japanese army (in fact, every Korean source that you can find states as a matter of fact that they were sent to draft men into the military), and were not simply deserting (they did a piss poor job of it since they were lousy characters, but that's a different matter entirely). --조지토머스 (talk) 06:51, 10 December 2021 (UTC)