Talk:Kappa Kappa Gamma/Archive 1

Does it seem strange to anyone else that Lucy Webb Hayes and Julia Ward Howe would have been 40 and 50, respectively, when the fraternity was founded? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.180.2.26 (talk • contribs)

A: Lucy Webb Hayes and Julia Ward Howe accepted honourary memberships. Notable Kappas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.97.140.79 (talk • contribs)

Reformat to Notable Kappas

Recommending a reformat to make this section easier to read: Write the name with a link, then the information about the person. Example:

• Ashley Judd ΒΧ University of Kentucky, Actress; credits include A Time to Kill, 1996, Kiss the Girls, 1997, and Double Jeopardy, 1999 —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexandraKKG (talk • contribs)

Minerva

The article states that the owl comes from the greek goddess Minerva, but Minerva is the roman equivalent to the greek goddess Athens. So it should either read "the greek goddess Athens" or "the romand goddess Minerva".--Rudy Knaap 22:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest that you add those facts anyway? I mean, this isn't a PR service -- if you can cite your sources I'm sure it would be appreciated in the community if you add anything you know to be true. --Seja430 23:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The reference was posted before, it got munged in an auto-bot clean up or something. Since it would be unfair to revert the talk page (too many posts since) I'll repost the disussion, For information:

>>The presence of the Kappa Call information on the call-out box implies that the call is currently in official use by Kappa Kappa Gamma. However no current web or print published material indicates this is the case. (That I am aware of) Since the reference is historical - History of Kappa Kappa Gamma Fraternity, 1870-1930 was published in 1932, should the call be moved to a different section of the page? There is a more recent "History of Kappa Kappa Gamma Through the Years" published in 2000 that does not indicate the call is in present usage. Unless it can be verified that it is officially in use today; it doesn't make sense to present it as part of the official symbols and mottos for the organization. This should be moved to the history section. -ppfleiger —Preceding unsigned comment added by ppfleiger (talk • contribs)

I will also add that before there was the coat of arms, the call was used in engravings that you can still find on ebay and places today - there are multiple, legitimate references for its historical significance. My point is/was that the information needs to be posted in the proper context, not as "THE OFFICIAL CALL".

Notable Kappas Inclusion Guidelines

I am proposing there be some agreed upon guidelines for inclusion in the "Notable Kappas" listing for this article. The list includes too many 'borderline' famous people and there continues to be controversy as to what constitutes notable. I propose the following guidelines to keep the list a little more relevant:

1. The individual must have a wikipedia entry, or at a minimum, be worthy of having one. (I realize that wikipedia doesn't confer notability, but it seems reasonable to state that if you are not notable enough to warrant a separate article, you aren't notable enough to make this list)
2. The individual must be an initiated member of Kappa Kappa Gamma, or if the person is an honorary member or affiliated through some other means it should be noted on their entry. (i.e. Honorary Membership)
3. The individual must not have returned their badge/ renounced their membership at any point (e.g. Candace Bergan, Angela DiAngelis, et al).

Guidelines subject to further discussion - all input welcome. I've taken the (probably controversial) step of removing all individuals on the list who do not currently appear to have a wikipedia article. I've made the assumption that anyone listed already meets criteria 2 & 3 for being a member. I also updated a few links to individuals who had a wikipedia article that was not properly linked, or who i felt deserved a stub. Removed individuals are listed below. If you think they should be re-included, link to their wiki article and go to town... --ppfleiger 18:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• Sally Charlton Augustiny ΒΝ, Ohio State, 1947 - Commercial artist; book illustrator
• Jean Bartel Γ Ξ, UCLA 1942- Miss America, 1943
• Robin Burns ΒΤ, Syracuse, 1971 - Retired as Victoria's Secret Beauty Corp. CEO.; former president and CEO of Estee Lauder Companies Inc.'s North American operations and its Donna Karan Cosmetics brand; served as president of Calvin Klein Cosmetics Co.; headed the cosmetics division of Bloomingdales
• Marian Simpson (Garber) Carter Γ Ω, Denison- Career in Radio - NBC, CBS
• Gena Rowlands Cassavetes Η, Wisconsin, 1949 - Movie and television actress; nominated for an Oscar for her portrayal of Mabel Longhetti in A Woman Under the Influence, 1974; recently played Allie Calhoun in The Notebook, 2004
• Nancy Hanschman Dickerson Η, Wisconsin, 1947- White House correspondent; publisher of Among Those Present, a 1976 memoir covering the Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and Ford administrations
• Ruann Ernst ΒΝ, Ohio State, 1965- Business woman; retired as CEO of Digital Island in 2002; worked for Hewlett Packard and General Electric
• Bernice Williams Foley ΒΡ(Δ), Cincinnati, 1922 - Writer, journalist, and editor; director of Ohioana Library
• Lori Gottleib ΒΗ Deuteron, Stanford, 1987 - Author and commentator
• Nancy Logan Haigwood ΕΓ, North Carolina, 1971 - Internationally recognized AIDS research scientist
• Polly Knipp Hill ΒΛ, Illinois and Β Τ, Syracuse, 1919 – Artist
• Rosemary Henderson Marks ΓΣ, Manitoba,1951 - Leading lady of Ice Capades; won top awards in Canadian figure skating before she was 19
• Shelley Smith Mydans ΒΕ, Barnard College, 1933 - Author; wife of Carl Mydans
• Carey Boone Nelson Θ, Missouri, 1943 -Artist & sculptor
• Nancy Fields O'Connor ΒΦ, Montana, 1948- Actress; artist; wife of Carroll O'Connor
• Elinor Keiss Rose Κ, Hillsdale, 1928 – Poet
• Patti Searight ΒΝ, Ohio State, 1937- Radio and television executive; director of American Women in Radio and Television
• Lisa Spain Short Δ Υ, University of Georgia, 1981 - 1984 NCAA Singles Champion, First All-American in women's tennis at UGA, and achieved All-American status from 1981 – 1984
• Susan Burrows Swan ΒΝ, Ohio State, 1948 - Associate registrar at Winterthur Museum; author
• Anne Armstrong Thompson ΒΧ, Kentucky, 1957 - Bestselling author
• Beth Whittall ΓΔ, Purdue, 1954 - Swimmer; represented USA in the 1956 Olympics in Melbourne, Australia
• Betty Jane McKenty Wylie ΓΣ, Manitoba, 1947 - Dramatic writer and poet
• Marguerite Wykoff Zapoleon ΒΡ(Δ), Cincinnati, 1924 - Economic consultant and author of books on occupations and employment

Suggestion

Response: This is secret information that is supposed to be known only by the members of the fraternity, and if it has been made public, it was either in error or out of spite. The "Book of Ritual" is written in a manner indecipherable to non-members; thus, the information is not public merely because it is contained therein. Please refer to the Kappa Kappa Gamma preamble if you wish to understand why it would be detrimental to the organization for this knowledge to be made public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.23.179.27 (talk • contribs)

Questions

Is this site basically a Fraternity-composed site by and for Kappa Kappa Gamma? If so, then only members should contribute. (Please let everyone know so that other individuals won't add information that promptly gets removed.)

Secondly, could Dr. Nancy Logan Haigwood be added back to the list of Notable Kappas? Although she doesn't have her own Wikipedia page, an internet search will reveal that she is a brilliant and highly respected research scientist. (On Google, "Nancy + Haigwood + HIV or AIDS" yields almost 700 citations.) I would suggest that perhaps having a Wikipedia page may be too stringent a requirement for inclusion in the "Notable Kappas" list. If Dr. Haigwood was removed for reasons other than not being in Wikipedia, I would hope that those reasons could be shared with the rest of us. - jf —Preceding unsigned comment added by jimmyflathead (talk • contribs)

In response to your question. No, this is Wikipedia, a free encyclopedia anyone can edit. This site is to provide general information on the Kappa Kappa Gamma fraternity for those either in it or researching it. I do not believe that ANY information that is secret to the fraternity should be shared on this page. A general description should suffice i.e. "The ideals of Kappa Kappa Gamma are... The bonds of this fraternity are.." etc. (I know when I was initiated into alpha sigma alpha I promised not to reveal ANY information that was protected by the sorority) I incidentally believe that should apply to Wikipedia articles for sororities or fraternities, even if it has been made public before. Feel free to add to the Kappa Kappa Gamma page, just be respectful of the fact that it is indeed an organization that does have secrets that should be respected.

As for Dr. Nancy Logan, I personally like the inclusion guidelines, but that's just me. I feel that it gets rid of a lot of what was clutter (notable or not). Why have a bunch of notable Kappas on this site if you can't read about them on Wikipedia. It's a hassle to go to google and do an independent search. If you feel that somebody is notable and does deserve inclusion please think about starting a wikipedia article on that person, or at the very least a stub, and then re-add the person to the notable Kappas list. (Please remember to write your own information and not to copy paste, since it is a copy right violation if you don't). —Preceding unsigned comment added by ImmortalGoddezz (talk • contribs)

Hey - its wikipedia - Anyone can re-add notable Kappas... just do it. If the person is newsworthy or notable, then add them back and make them a stub. I put the framework out as a way to force the notable list to encourage a little more "encyclopedic" nature to the article. If folks want the full list, they can easily visit the kappa.org website for the PR version. --[[User:--ppfleiger 16:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to add that I believe that a lot of information on this article wouldn't be available without independent help. (People who aren't a part of Kappa Kappa Gamma) Limiting this article only to people who are in Kappa Kappa Gamma, would limit the information on it, and would bias it a bit. (I mean who doesn't think their sorority or fraternity is the best?) --ImmortalGoddezz 22:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Response to ImmortalGoddezz - Thanks for your kind and thoughtful comments. I personally know Dr. Haigwood, who was not only an alumna at UNC-Chapel Hill, but was also their chapter adviser. I think that it's an unfortunate truth that Nobel Laureates, authors, scientists and surgeons are frequently less notable than even some cartoon characters, misogynistic musicians, or "badboy" athletes. Maybe someday she and others who have contributed so much to the world will be more widely recognized for their accomplishments.

While that might be true, when I think of my own sorority and posting the things I have learned while in it, made a specific pledge not to share, I would find it personally dishonorable to post another's secrets, even if it has been published before. But that is just me. You are correct in saying knowing a ritual isn't nearly as important as living its truths, but I wouldn't want to be singled out as the person who posted online for the world to see, my sororities secrets, especially since they are so important to me.

As for Dr. Haigwood, yes it is unfortunate that some people who do contribute a lot to this world are not recognized, but you do have to realize that a good deal of wikipedia is run by computer geeks. (The reason I'm on it myself is because my boyfriend is one and introduced me) Whom I have noticed have a very narrow focus. But that doesn't mean that every medical topic is ignored, etc. Just look at the AIDS page or the Cystic fibrosis page, both diseases with great articles. If you feel that something is missing I would definitely suggest contributing to wikipedia what you feel is missing. It is easy once you get the hang of it and there are always a ton of people willing to help. --ImmortalGoddezz 10:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Secrets and Loyalty

---> Getting back to the encyclopedia part of this though - I agree it should not just be an exercise in re-gurgitation of the PR from the fraternity, however it should be (hopefully) information from legitimate, reference-able sources. The trouble with using the book of ritual as a source is that it is not published, and what secrets are contained within are not printed in plain text anyway. So it could potentially create a situation where anyone could say "it is the goal of XYZ organization to throw frequent naked pillow fights, as referenced in the Book of Ritual", and since the book is not published, no one would be able to prove or disprove the statement. Opinions on loyalty/secrets are somewhat irrelevant? --ppfleiger 16:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Other Notables

Are Annabeth Gish (Duke) and Mariska Hargitay (UCLA) not claimed by the main office? Even though they are claimed on individual websites and have been noted in past issues of the Kappa magazine? 68.88.228.118 23:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

>> To my knowledge, those names were not left out on purpose...if you have the reference, add them back in. AlexandraKKG 03:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Mariska Hargitay

What's the real story with Mariska Hargitay? From what I would consider non-authoritative sources, she's listed as being a member, and then also listed as being not a member:

• http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?s=6b2210b7c11d53a9e5caa02e16d0d8ab&postid=1066730
• The Mariska Hargitay wiki entry (un-cited)
• Greekchat post

Does anyone have a good reference one way or the other?

Ritual and Secrets

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. The ritual and secrets of Kappa Kappa Gamma are recorded in the "Book of Ritual", encoded in cipher. The book is not a published work nor is it made available to non-members. As such, it does not provide a source text that can be verifiably referenced. Editors should avoid using "...it's in the Book of Ritual" as a crutch for true verifiability. Instead, please provide a reliable primary or secondary source: Examples of sources for this article include Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities. As with all wiki entries, the burden of proof is on the editor.

Deletion Vandalism

The section entitled "Other Facts" has suffered deletion vandalism twice. The Kappa Kappa Gamma article is supposed to be truthful information, but not an advertisement for the organization. Deletion vandalism is not permitted on Wikipedia, and continued vandalism can result in being blocked. - jf —Preceding unsigned comment added by jimmyflathead (talk • contribs)

The section entitled "Other Facts" has undergone deletion vandalism again. Deletion vandalism is not permitted on Wikipedia.

Symbols

The meaning of Alpha Omega Omicron on the ward of the badge cannot accurately be verified as standing for greek numerals. While the Greeks did have a numeric system using their letters, only members of Kappa Kappa Gamma actually know whether or not that is what those letters stand for. As has been noted before, while it may be true, any information found in the ritual book of Kappa Kappa Gamma cannot be verified and therefore cannot be listed on the Wikipedia site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.56.249.158 (talk • contribs)