Talk:Kansas State University/Archive 1

Archive 1

Cheer

Now say it with me...

"K - S - U . . . WILDCATS!!"

And we shall follow that up with Another K-State FIRST DOWN!

Kirk: I'm afraid cheering for your favourite team doesn't really belong in an encyclopedia article. ;-)

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What is wrong w/ adding a little color (or colour, as you might say) to these entries?

And if this encyclopedia entry (or any/all entries for that matter) are to be accurate, why not include things of this nature (btw, the lines you reference are indeed a part of the University, to some degree).

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Oh, Lord. I see a whole raft of subpages for fight songs coming. --MichaelTinkler, alumnus of perennial football unfavorite Rice University

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Nothing wrong with a little colour (or color, as you might say). However, you might preface the cheer with somthing like this:

While taking in a game, one is likely to hear the university cheer... (insert cheer here)

That way, you're not asking the readers to cheer along with you. -- Stephen Gilbert

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I think adding fight songs would be no different than adding entries for other songs (see Take me out to the ball game). -- RjLesch, whose school fight song was usually sung as "Don't know the words / Don't know the words / ..."

Main Campus Buildings

Just a suggestion, instead of making an article per building make one article and link to the headings. It's still a work in progress, but see Iowa State University and Buildings of Iowa State University for an example. Cburnett 01:02, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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Good suggestion. I wasn't involved in writing that part of the page, but I'm thinking of spinning off some info onto other pages that cover bigger topics in that style. Kgwo1972 00:07, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

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I like the idea, but have reservations. I might be more for that idea of Wikipedia weren't so slow so frequently. As such, the large pages like that never finish loading. --Hanenkamp 17:25, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Distinguished alumni

Kirstie Alley never graduated. I think she should be removed from the alumni section, but I would like some feedback. Kgwo1972 17:09, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

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I went ahead and put the designation attended next to her name and others are not actually alumni. Kgwo1972 00:45, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Old map

I remember inside a closet door in jounalism department was a really old perspective map (is that the right term?). I wonder if it's still there. I was very tempted to steal it but I was too honest. If it's still there it would be cool to get a photograph of it. --Gbleem 04:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Research sentence removed

Hi all - I removed the following sentence:

Faculty and graduate research is conducted at the university in agronomy, biosciences, electrical engineering, food science and the social sciences.

The context implies these are the only areas where research is done, which is false. Also, I don't really see the purpose for such a list. It should be presumed that at any large research university, research is conducted in all academic fields. With a few very minor exceptions, I believe this is true of K-State. --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 00:18, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

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Seems rational to me. I was just mucking around with that part of the page but that sentence was not my work. Kgwo1972 00:45, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

New Coach!

If someone could make a Ron Prince page, that would be great, seeing as the cats have a new coach.

Dan Glickman

Anybody have a citation that proves Dan Glickman attended KSU? I couldn't find one. --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 01:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Alcoholic coaches

I have now removed the statement that KSU basketball coach is an alcoholic. There are two problems with this addition. First, its not relevant to an article on KSU, perhaps the article on the coach, but not here. Second, it was unsourced. It being "well known" is not sufficient. A verifiable source is needed. Without such wikipedia is exposing itself to libel suits. --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 02:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Bleeding Purple

We use that a lot to say we are die-hard fans. Should it be added under trivia or something?Cameron Nedland 20:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll add it. WaltBren (talk) 19:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

KSU name

If someone knows, please correct. Otherwise, I'll look it up and do it. I thought that the name was, at one time, Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Science until about 20 years ago. Polounit 02:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)Done/Thanks, Spacini. Polounit 03:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Demographics

Is there any official information on this (like saying that 90% of students are from Johnson County, etc.)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cameron Nedland (talk • contribs) 16:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

National champions

I have reverted this edit. This webpage appears to contradict it. --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 01:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

As does this, if you count individual sports. Kslogic | Talk 23:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Campus in Olathe

Has anyone heard any details on the new campus they're making?Cameron Nedland (talk) 19:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Its not new. its an ag farm southeast of Lawrence that has been there for years. My sister worked there, too. Full of snakes, she said. WaltBren (talk) 19:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Endowment

The endowment figure has been going back and forth, so I though some explanation would be helpful. The figure of $453 million from the Foundation's annual report is for ALL assets, including non-endowment assets like the golf course and other real estate (see page 15). The annual report does show a figure of $289.8 million for pure endowments (see page 14 graphs), but that does not include quasi and term endowments. The best source of the actual endowment for Kansas State University is the NACUBO Endowment Study. NACUBO is the National Association of College and University Business Officers. Each September universities submit the fair market value of their endowment to NACUBO (along with lots of other data), which is published several months later. This is the source of the $346.4 million figure that has been reverted. In this case, both the annual report and the NACUBO study are dated 6/30/07, so one is not more current than the other. I hope this explanation helps. Alanraywiki (talk) 15:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with using the NACUBO figures. It is more accurate and third-party sources should be used whenever possible. →Wordbuilder (talk) 16:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I also agree with using the NACUBO figures for the reasons given above. It also provides an accurate means of comparison between institutions. -Kgwo1972 (talk) 21:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It now appears that a revert war has started. I support the NACUBO figures, but perhaps we should turn this over to an admin.Spacini (talk) 13:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Since the editor who insists on the other version is, so far, unwilling to join the conversation and since that editor's version has not received support here, I think if the current version is again changed, then admin intervention may be required. →Wordbuilder (talk) 13:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Official Name

The reverted section stated that the official name of Kansas State University was "Kansas State College of Agriculture and Applied Science" and was changed to this in 1959. According to this page from K-State Libraries, the college was named KSCAAS on 09 March 1931, and was changed to Kansas State University on 27 March 1959. Flibbert (talk) 15:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

This was a mistaken revert. The page referenced from the K-State University Archives isn't specific with the full name of the university. What it is referencing is that "College" was changed to "University". The official name of the university is Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Science. Spacini (talk) 04:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

However, this articlestates that the name was changed from Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Science to Kansas State University in 1959.--Flibbert (talk) 16:27, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

The article cited by Flibbert is incorrect. University Archives at K-State maintains a complete file about the name change from Kansas State College of Agriculture and Applied Science to Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Science. The University Archivist supplied me with the official memo from President James A. McCain (now cited in this article) noting the name change. --Spacini (talk) 17:04, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

The memo cited by Spacini is outdated. I've found more than a few cites that say that recently K-State has become Kansas State University. Here's one, another, and another. Please check out the last one especially. The Higher Learning Comission specifically states: Name change notes: Kansas State Agricultural College to Kansas State College of Agriculture and Applied Science to Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Science (1959) to Kansas State University (1963) I have reverted your edit and also supplied a full cite. Thanks for being civil about this. Flibbert (talk) 18:03, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

President McCain's memo is not outdated. And to suggest that an official document by the University's president and archived in the University Archives is outdated is silly. The Legislature of Kansas changed the name of the university by House Bill 26, passed by the House on February 19, 1959, by the Senate, March 19, 1959, and signed into law by Governor George Docking on March 20, 1959. No act of the Kansas Legislature since March 20, 1959 has changed the name of Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Science. This debate is not about what one web site says vs. what another says. This is about an act of the Kansas Legislature which has not been amended or repealed since 1959. Numerous documents in the University Archives at K-State (where I work) confirm the official name of the university. As recently as 2007, a memo from the University's Registrar's Office notes the official seal of the University, which includes the full name of the university as cited within this article. --Spacini (talk) 18:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what else to do. I've given you the cites, I've cited numerous articles that support my side. You've done a lot of personal research, which, I think , is in violation of WP:NOR. The fact that you claim to work for University Archives and/or claim to have a copy of said memo in hand is irrelevant. I could claim to be the President of the University...it really wouldn't matter. What kind of ideas do you have to solve our dilemma? Flibbert (talk) 18:48, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Personal research? Finding citations from Kansas Statutes does not constitute personal research nor is it in violation for WP:NOR. I'm not providing opinion or synthesis of data. I'm simply providing a verifiable source for the official name of the university. The sources you cite are not official university publications, memos, or statutes for the State of Kansas. The Kansas Legislature is the only body that can change the name of the university, and it has not done so since 1959. Feel free to seek mediation from an editor if you wish.--Spacini (talk) 19:03, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you supply a link to any of these sources? Because all I see are you saying that you have sources, rather than actual cites to said sources. Flibbert (talk) 19:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

All Wikipedia sources do not have to be online to be verifiable; if that were the case, thousands upon thousands of facts in this resource would be negated. Many online sources have also proved to be in error. I have provided accurate citations for the sources I used down to the page numbers. Anyone can turn to the State of Kansas, Session Laws, 1959 volume, page 686 and find House Bill No. 26, which officially changed the name of the university. --Spacini (talk) 23:21, 3 February 2010 (U

True, some online sources can be in error. However, I believe that since I have found multiple sources, the error is not on my side. I've submitted this case for mediation as we are unable to come to a resolution. As far as you're concerned, this page is your way or the highway. A third party opinion will be the defining factor in this revert.Flibbert (talk) 03:12, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Here is yet another source, from the Kansas State Library Archives no less, which once again backs my claim. How many will it take to convince you that the name has changed? Flibbert (talk) 03:16, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The source that you cite, from K-State's University Archives, has Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Science. --Spacini (talk) 18:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess that proves that you do, in fact, work for the university. Good job on covering your tracks. We both know what that web pages said three days ago. Too bad you don't work for Google or the Wayback machine. A simple trip to that page will prove what that page said until you had it changed. Flibbert (talk) 16:04, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll just chime in to say I'd support the name given by the State Legislature as being the "official name" -- whatever that name may be. I don't have any information to contribute, but I wish you luck in working this out amiably. -Kgwo1972 (talk) 19:13, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I would as well, except that every single source of information I have found in research states that the name was changed to "Kansas State University" somewhere around 1959-1963. Nothing I've found states that it is the way that the other user keeps typing in and reverting to. Rather than perform child-like antics, I'm taking the high road on this one; I've stopped reverting and filed a mediation request. Outcome lies within a third party. Flibbert (talk) 19:43, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

For those that care, here is a link and another link to the Google cached version and of the Internet Archive Wayback machine of the K-State Library Archives. This plainly states what the page said before User:Spacini, who works for the University Library, had it changed to reflect his opinion. I have screenshots as well that I can easily post on flickr or photobucket if needed. Thanks. Flibbert (talk) 22:07, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's be realistic and reasonable about all this. Taking the "high road" is not saying that someone else is performing "child-like antics". It's blatantly an ad hominem attack. At no point have I stated opinion or pointed to sources that support opinion. The fact is that the university's official name is Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Science, and the Kansas Legislature is the body that changed the name. There is nothing, positively nothing, official from the state of Kansas that the university's official name was changed in 1963 or at any other time after 1959 that removed "of Agriculture and Applied Science". K-State is a land-grant university, a historic agriculture college, one that continues to focus on agriculture and applied sciences. Why is that so difficult to fathom? --Spacini (talk) 03:05, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I found this at the mediation cabal page. I am here to help resolve your dispute. Although there is a stoppage of posts here, for my own use, can you User: Flibbert, you User:Spacini, and you User:Kgwo1972 please post statements, in a WP:CIVIL way, on this page for me to review. Thanks! Hamtechperson 01:14, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Per outcome of Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-02-01/Kansas_State_University mediation has determined that the official name of K-State is "Kansas State University" and not "Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Sciences." Please see the mediation page for more details or contact the mediator User:Hamtechperson for more information. Thanks. Flibbert (talk) 16:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Positively amazing. Ignoring the fact that the Kansas Legislature is the only body with the authority to change the name of the university (which it did in 1959), and ignoring the fact that the Kansas Legislature has not changed the name of the university since that time, and accepting one editor's claim that "research states that the name was changed to 'Kansas State University' somewhere around 1959-1963" but not citing one source for this purported change circa 1959-1963, the mediator has concluded that the acts and statutes of the State of Kansas are incorrect. Absolutely remarkable. Spacini (talk) 18:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Amazing on the one hand, Spacini, but on the other, par for the course. This decision by WP's administrators demonstrates why researchers who seek accuracy through demonstrable & reliable sourcing will never consider WP anything more than a tip sheet. That is, it's a handy way to get information, but one shouldn't consider it any more definitive than a buddy who tells you he has a great tip on a hot stock or a fast horse. We've all seen accepted facts challenged by "experts," while personal emotions are permitted to stand. So don't take it personally -- in fact, use WP as a way to test students for laziness by asking them to right about a topic that's wrong here; those who don't bother to check facts tend to repeat this site as if it were gospel. Try reading The Cult of the Amateur, by Andrew Keen. You'll get a kick out of it. The most relevant part is his retelling of the Essjay controversy. The WP version plays down the giggles professional researchers expressed after Jimmy Wales initially defended academic fraud; it was first published in The New Yorker. Nbaz34 (talk) 17:41, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh my. I can't quite believe this, though frankly I don't care enough to register or engage in any ongoing disputes. I came up against the question of the university's official name while undertaking an editing project for a private company. I went so far as to contact the University's PR department directly, given the wealth of confusion and misinformation on the topic. In the end, it took them two weeks to get back to me, because they had no idea either! I know that counts as OR for purposes of non-inclusion, so let me point interested editors to what should be the last and final word--the Kansas Legislature. "Statute 76-756: Capital improvements for state educational institutions by endowment associations; definitions. As used in this act: (a) "State educational institution" means Fort Hays state university, Kansas state university of agriculture and applied science, Kansas state university veterinary medical center, Emporia state university, Pittsburg state university, university of Kansas, university of Kansas medical center, Wichita state university and Kansas state university, college of technology at Salina." If Flibbert is still around and editing I hope he lets this one go--he's so manifestly incorrect that it's amazing. And the mod who arbitrated this needs a time-out. See also K.S.A. 76-116d, K.S.A. 76-156a, Kansas HB 2016 (2001), etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.149.1.36 (talk) 14:07, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Just because a bill mentions one name doesn't mean that it is the current name. — BQZip01 — ^talk 08:28, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Fuck you. I'm done being nice. You fucking parasite, and enemy to fact. Those aren't bills I referenced. Those are fucking statutes! Are you able to comprehend the difference? The institutions of the state are defined by the apparatus of the state. Self-fucking-evident, isn't it? You fucking simpleton.

I've never been moved to this sort of rage before. I'm enraged because the simple facts are available for anyone with the most basic google prowess, or the ability to think. This whole fucking endeavor (by this, I mean Wikipedia) was predicated upon the idea that knowledge shouldn't be privileged. And yet, those who have embraced the project, have registered their names/IPs, and may know sweet fuck all about the topics they're editing are privileged above those who have spent hours, days, years, or lifetimes studying a thing.

Revisionist history is given a pass, or at best demands equal time with serious scholarship. And that best doesn't happen often, if ever,

So who the fuck are you? I'm not Spacini, as I've been accused of being. Nor am I a sock or meat puppet of anyone else. I'm an IP that refuses to register, that is all.

Let's recap. Spacini, while probably partisan to the issue, provided documentation that clearly indicated the university's official name. Flibbert, took issue with Spacini's documentation, going so far as to accuse the user of forgery. All the time, the evidence is easily and publicly accessible via Kansas statute. I jump in (with an IP verifiably from Lawrence, and therefore automatically a K-State hater) and provide the statutes that define institutions in the state and the reference to those statutes.

You understand that the state of Kansas defines, delimits, and otherwise describes the state's university, right? Do you understand that the state legislature giving voice to its understanding of an institution under its complete control defines it?

How's this for knowledge, fuckwits? When the state legislature calls the university in Manhattan, Kansas the 'Kansas State University for Agriculture and Applied Science', the state legislature changes the name of the school. No matter what it was, or what it would be. The school is a state institution. The state names it. I have already provided to you the name given by our state. (comments by user:24.143.39.73...sig added by BQZip01)

Swearing and other associated tantrums aren't going to get you your way. As I've stated, you have provided only a single reference and the body of evidence (everything OTHER that the source you personally seem to control) seems to indicate otehrwise. Your location is irrelevant. While this may not be sockpuppetry, it may be meatpuppetry, which is treated the same here on WP. Again, please provide more evidence and/or participate in discussions in a civil manner. Any further outbursts will be sent up for a block on your IP address. — BQZip01 — ^talk 17:07, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok everyone. Let's settle down. This slow-rolling edit war is getting a bit ridiculous. My unsolicited thoughts (I'll address my comments to each user)

1. Flibbert: You have indeed made a strong case that the name is indeed Kansas State University. You have cited multiple reliable sources showing this name change and this is a very good thing. However, when researching and conflicting evidence arises, you have to consider that some sources might be wrong. They may be basing their research upon faulty information or common misconceptions. The sources you provide are not official documents, but are reliable secondary sources. That said, they do not appear to be based upon the legal names of state institutions as determined by the state governments. Yes, Spacini may indeed work for the University and he may or may not have a position he believes, but that doesn't make him wrong. You need to consider that Spacini may have simply fixed an error on the Kansas State website; his actions are completely within the bounds of his job and could easily have no sinister motive. Just dial it back and make your case professionally.
2. Spacini: Please edit under your official name and do NOT use IPs to bolster your opinions. Accounts used to show more support for a position than actually exists is prohibited. Do you have a link to this house bill? Do you have any links from which we can browse through the archives to find the actual name of the school? If it isn't anything more than House Bill XYZ states "ABC", then we really don't have access to it and it is quite difficult to validate your claims. Most state governments have such websites and it would really be useful to see that information. Until then, we have nothing but your word that these are what is stated. Since other reliable sources that we CAN view discredit this opinion, I'm going to side with the mediator (for now) and I am reverting the name back. — BQZip01 — ^talk 08:29, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course I have considered that. However, I found multiple pieces of evidence, took my case to mediation, and went with the findings there. Other than the steps that I have taken, I don't see anything else possible for a solution. Until a mediator rules the other way, I think that the name should remain the way the mediation case was ruled. Flibbert (talk) 16:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Big 12 WikiProject

I'm trying to gauge the interested in created a Big 12 WikiProject and wondering who would like to be involved. There are already pages for WikiProject Big Ten and WikiProject ACC. A Big 12 project would cover the schools themselves and anything to do with conference sports including: events, rivalries, teams, seasons, championships and lore. There is already quite a bit of activity here on Wikipedia regarding the Big 12, and I think a project could help coordinate and unify our efforts. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Big 12 if you are interested, and add your name to the list. Grey Wanderer (talk) 00:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Secret Societies

Can we get some more information about KSU's secret societies on here please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.7.18.90 (talk) 19:37, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Additions are generally welcomed if they are relevant to the page and have sources cited. -Kgwo1972 (talk) 15:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

We had a secret society when I was there--there were three or four of us that met in Kris Kahle's basement apartment to drink beer and play Warcraft. We never told anyone so it was a secret. But if you're talking about something like Skull and Bones then I would contend that if there are "secret societies" at Kansas State, they're really good at keeping it a secret because no one knows about them.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:53, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I have seen things around campus, logos and symbols and what not. Nothing too obvious but it appears that they make their presence known. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.7.18.90 (talk) 20:50, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Statute

FWIW, an online database of annotated Kansas statutes, which claims currency through 2009, has an article (in the statutory sense) with the heading 'Kansas State University', but if you find 'agriculture and and applied science', you find that every individual statute specifies the longer name, as it does in every other citation (e.g., 2-1429) not directly under this direct article heading (the heading, by the way, from the site, and therefore not necessarily statutorily correct: [1]. Drawn by the swearing and (broad) personal attack in the edit summary. Recommend, per common name - Kansas State University, formally known as...often abbreviated as/to...; and, BTW, those 'other' abbreviations should not be used within the article, except where they're in a direct quote. Got there (quickly) by searching 'agriculture applied science' on the KSU website in external links, finding the seed certification available there, and then a search for "k.s.a. 2-1429", found that statute on the site, then searched 'Kansas State University'. The complete site is rather large, and I crashed several times before getting to Chapter & article level, which has taken me since the last edit, but this should move a discussion towards a resolution. Hope it helps. Dru of Id (talk) 07:40, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

THAT is useful information. Thank you so much! In such a case, I would recommend adding a note that it is "also interchangably defined in Kansas state law as both Kansas State University and Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Science. That should clear up this mess quite neatly. — BQZip01 — ^talk 02:01, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Although Spacini and especially the IP's have been rather belligerent on this topic, from what I'm seeing it looks like they've got the facts right. The school's own history pages say so,[2][3] and a recent piece of legislation[4] uses the longer name, "Kansas State University of Agriculture and Applied Science", albeit uncapitalized except for the word "Kansas". The school's signage in general seems to prefer simply "Kansas State University". But if the article doesn't mention the longer, "official" name, it should. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:24, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I see that it does mention the longer name, but buried in the article. If that's the school's official and legal name, it should be mentioned in the lead somewhere. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Hold the phone. It is alleged here[5] that Spacini himself manipulated the contents of the school's website. If that's true, then he's rendered their website invalid as a source. Smart move. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I did a google search for "kansas state university of agriculture and applied science" on the kslegislature.org web site and got 241 hits. See the following link http://www.google.com/search?q=%22kansas+state+university+of+agriculture+and+applied+science%22+site%3Akslegislature.org&hl=en&sitesearch=kslegislature.org&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=images&tbs=
• Sbmeirow • Talk • 19:23, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Hopefully my edits address the key issues to everyone's satisfaction. If not, please feel free to edit them for yourself. — BQZip01 — ^talk 01:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Looks like a good solution to me -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:46, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

• Sigh. Literally no one in Kansas ever calls it the long name, except in legal procedures, perhaps. There is truly no need to include the long name in the lead at all, as the mention of it in the article text was more than sufficient. LHM 01:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

  Fair enough. Let's see what others say. I'm not opposed to removing it from the lead either. — BQZip01 — ^talk 02:28, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Logo

The logo with the Powercat in the infobox seems to be a newer file and is directly off of the Kansas State Department of Communications website. The color is much better (more Royal Purple) in it too. I think it should stay. Nonoah59 (talk) 04:55, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Normally, I'd agree. I think it looks much better. However, WP has a doctrine, WP:NFCC, which dictates that we should reduce non-free images to the max extent possible. Since the wildcat is already included in the article, this would be an unnecessary duplication. I invite others to weigh in on the matter. — BQZip01 — ^talk 05:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Ehh I don't know, I think for the sake of the article the new and current logo should be used. The Powercat is smaller and is included in the official logo for the University. The bigger Powercat is completely separate and is intended solely for athletics. I understand the doctrine, but I personally don't think it's a big deal if it is used in this way. 98.134.134.0 (talk) 23:37, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

No, actually, the powercat is only used in ONE of the logos of the University (see page 3 of the university's trademark guide). Also, note that different variations of purple are also acceptable (which is why the two don't exactly match in color). Since we have the option to use an official trademarked, but PD, wordmark, we should do so. — BQZip01 — ^talk 05:32, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I still like the other one better, but I'll let you win this one. You know a lot more about this than I even want to get into! Nonoah59 (talk) 05:25, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I like the other one better too, but, if we try to put it in, it will only cause problems, violate the "rules of the road", and will eventually be removed anyway. This way provides FAR fewer headaches. Look forward to working with you again in the future! — BQZip01 — ^talk 03:03, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, now that you guys have gotten that resolved, the university has changed its wordmark. See New Graphic Standards. I'll let someone else upload the new one who knows better what they're doing. -Kgwo1972 (talk) 16:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Flagship status

K-State is not the flagship university of the state of Kansas. University of Kansas is the flagship university of Kansas. Please do not edit the article to indicate so. We must maintain consistency. Please see the article and talk page for flagship.DMB112 (talk) 12:35, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Kansas State President Kirk Schulz confirms this: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2012/jan/26/k-state-president-discusses-drive-secure-nbaf-fund/ So does the College Board: http://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tables/state-tuition-and-fees-flagship-universities-2012-13-and-5-year-percentage-change-tuition and Washington Higher Education Coordinating Board: http://www.wsac.wa.gov/sites/default/files/TuitionandFees2009-10Report-Final.pdf 71.251.92.43 (talk) 13:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

No, Kansas State is a flagship university. There can be more than one per state. It's been cited before. USA Today is a credible, reliable source. There's no need to remove the flagship status from this article.

Dr. Schulz is certainly not quoted as saying that Kansas State is not a flagship university and that Kansas is. That was an editorial comment made by the author, who is a graduate of Kansas and writes for the Lawrence (where Kansas is located) paper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scubo99 (talk • contribs) 23:40, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand your point, and the confusion introduced by the author of the 2006 USA Today piece's use of the general term "public flagship universities" doesn't help. With the sole exception of the Mary Specht article you noted, USA Today is consistent with the College Board (of which Kansas State University is a member) and government agencies such as the Higher Education Coordinating Board in stating that each state has only one flagship university. It may help to note that Mary Specht was an intern at the time the article was written. USA Today directly contradicts the Specht piece in multiple articles, both from before (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-21-uflorida-party-image_x.htm - refers to University of Florida as "the state's flagship public university" while the Specht article includes both the University of Florida and Florida State University) and after (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-27-uga-shooting-suspect_N.htm - the Specht article includes both University of Georgia and Georgia Tech, while the more recent piece refers to the University of Georgia as "Georgia's flagship public university") the article in question. Kansas State University may be a "flagship university" in the sense that it is an excellent school, but it is not the flagship university of Kansas. That's akin to stating that Company X is a "leading supplier of Widgets to the U.S. Air Force", as opposed to *the* leading supplier of Widgets. The designation of Kansas State University as a Flagship in its "Type" category is improper, and the genericized use of the term only introduces confusion and borders on peacocking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.251.92.43 (talk) 16:57, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, but neither of those articles cited have anything to do with Kansas. The citation provided earlier clearly lists Kansas State as a flagship university. Unless there is some evidence that there are only 50 flagship universities in the USA, one for each state, then states can have at least two universities with that designation. Just by quickly checking a few states, Utah, Michigan, Alabama, Texas, and California currently have more than one university with flagship status designated. If there can be only one flagship university per state, then all of those states also need the same attention that Kansas is currently receiving. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scubo99 (talk • contribs) 18:27, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

While this is being discussed here, could the edit warring on the page itself please stop? It seems to diminish the value of this discussion greatly if people just keep changing the article back and forth in the meantime. Or does this maybe need dispute resolution? Best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 18:34, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that most sources seem to regard Kansas as the "flagship university" in the state but one can find (in addition to the USA Today article) at least passing, local references that include K-State as well, e.g., link and link. No, they're not the best sources and they're not as good as those for Kansas, but - there they are. I think it's incumbent upon those who would remove the designation to explain why, sourced counterexamples notwithstanding, a state *must* have only one flagship. JohnInDC (talk) 21:44, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

A state must have only one flagship for the same reason that a naval fleet must: the word "flagship" itself is an attributive superlative. The two definitions of the word are "1. In a maritime fleet, the ship occupied by the fleet's commander (usually an admiral); it denotes this by flying his flag. 2. The most important one out of a related group." The second definition obviously suits this dry-land discussion. Each state cannot have two universities which are both "the most XXX."

The sole non-local source cited in support of Kansas State's claim for flagship status, the USA Today article, has been shown to be unreliable and/or suspect even within the USA Today's archives. The multitude of official sources (including, as was mentioned above, the College Board to which Kansas State University is a member) concurrently list a total of 50 and only 50 flagship universities (each time offering only one per state, and each of those schools remaining consistent). The consensus of authoritative sources is clearly that there is only one flagship university per state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.170.235.213 (talk) 23:31, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the word "flagship" in general implies one entity, but as applied to universities and in actual practice, states may claim more than one. It may offend our linguistic sensibilities, but there it is. Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. If it helps any, just consider that some states have more than one fleet of universities, and so, more than one flagship. JohnInDC (talk) 00:00, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

How has the USA Today article been shown "unreliable and/or suspect?" That other articles by the same publication don't include this university as a "flagship" weakens the claim but it doesn't make that specific article "unreliable" or "suspect."

Further, JohnInDC is correct that some states officially have multiple flagships, especially those with multiple systems. More importantly, it's very shortsighted to only think of this term as being one solely controlled by state governments. That is the correct approach within some contexts but in others we must recognize that some institutions are widely recognized as flagships regardless of their official status. In Wikipedia, we tend to take the broader view and ensure this is clear by consistently and transparently citing our sources.

Finally, I caution you (and everyone else) that edit warring is not the way to resolve this regardless of how right you think you are as there is clearly a lack of consensus here in Talk. ElKevbo (talk) 01:21, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

The intern-written USA Today article that listed 75 "public flagship universities" (and provided no source for its information) included Florida State University, Illinois State University, and Georgia Tech. The article is directly contradicted by 2005 and 2009 articles by the same newspaper, which stated the University of Florida and University of Georgia alone were their respective state's flagship public universities, as well as the Illinois House of Representatives (http://www.ilga.gov/house/journals/93/2004/HJ093218R.pdf) and United States Department of Education (http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/iegps/nrcflas-ca-la.pdf). The 2006 article and the other articles/sources cannot both be correct, and the 2005 and 2009 articles' statements are confirmed by the State University System of Florida's Board of Governors (http://www.flbog.edu/about/_doc/budget/tuition/2012-13-College-Board-Tuition-and-Fees-By-State.pdf), the College Board (which Kansas State is a member of and which does not designate Kansas State as a flagship university) and the Secretary of Education (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/11/21/flagship). Either the 2006 article is inaccurate, or the other USA Today articles, the College Board, the US Department of Education, the Secretary of Education, and individual states' governing boards/legislatures (regarding the universities in their own state) are all inaccurate. I believe it is a fair statement to say that it is the former.

What is your source that some states officially have multiple flagships?173.170.235.213 (talk) 01:57, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

The first place to look is in states that have multiple university systems. For example, Tennessee has the University of Tennessee system with the campus in Knoxville its flagship and the Board of Regents system with the University of Memphis its flagship.

With all due respect, it's just too simplistic to assume that each state has one and only one flagship university. The reality is much more complicated and reflects the history and politics of the US. While some states have made it very clear both through their legislation naming one university campus the flagship and their budgets prioritizing that university other states have multiple systems or even multiple campuses that purport to be one unified university e.g. Indiana University, Penn State.

I'm a higher ed scholar and researcher. It would make my job much, much easier if things were this clean and clear! But they're not and we have to reflect reality as it exists and not as we think it exists or hope it would exist. ElKevbo (talk) 02:20, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm fine with re-adding the flagship language to this page, but can you help me find a cite for it other than the 2006 USA Today article? I'm looking now. 173.170.235.213 (talk) 03:00, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a horse in this race but if that's the best source that can be provided then it sounds like it's information that shouldn't be included in this article. ElKevbo (talk) 03:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. If anyone finds another (reliable) source for KSU's flagship status, we'll re-add the flagship language. 173.170.235.213 (talk) 03:36, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

A recent AP article can be found on both the Huffington Post and CNN's Sports Illustrated showing both Kansas and Kansas State as flagship universities:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20130326/bkc-ncaa-shockers-and-jayhawks/?utm_hp_ref=green&ir=green

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2013/basketball/ncaa/wires/03/26/2060.ap.bkc.ncaa.shockers.and.jayhawks.1st.ld.writethru.1153/index.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scubo99 (talk • contribs) 14:29, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Those are reliable sources but they're not very strong ones since it's extremely unlikely that the authors are higher education experts. I know that some Wikipedia editors would firmly reject those sources since they're based on state or federal law declaring K State a flagship university. I don't think those sources are good enough to include "flagship" in the infobox or lead although they may merit mention in the body of the article e.g., "Although it is not labeled a flagship by the Kansas State legislature, some authors consider Kansas State University a flagship university." ElKevbo (talk) 19:25, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

That language is problematic since KU is also "not labeled a flagship by the Kansas State legislature." I knew this issue came up in the 1980s so I did a bit of research at newspaperarchive.com. I found that the only governmental reference to "flagship" status came in connection with Governor John Carlin's February 1986 proposal to add Washburn University as a State Regents' institution, as a branch of KU. (Which did not happen.) In Carlin's comments in February 1986, he referred to KU as "our flagship university in comprehensive research." This statement set off efforts from KU to have the status made official, and counter-efforts from KSU. (I have NO cite for that, but witnessed it.) In the last 27 years, there has been no governmental reference to a flagship school in Kansas (either KU or KSU). Take this for whatever it's worth. A broader discussion of the matter is occurring here: Wikipedia:Articles for creation/U.S. Flagship Universities -Kgwo1972 (talk) 14:23, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Greek organizations - names and links

I don't understand the recent back-and-forth that has occurred in the article regarding the "Fraternity and sorority life" section. Why wouldn't we want the name of each organization linked to the Wikipedia article that describes it? ElKevbo (talk) 15:37, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Beats me. Happy to see third opinion. In short, I want to see the instances of "Tau Kappa Epsilon Fraternity" replaced with "[[Tau Kappa Epsilon]]". Naraht (talk) 16:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The names should be linked to the Wikipedia articles that describe it. However, to list the organizations with just their "Greek letters" is incorrect in regards to the name standard of the organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajsune (talk • contribs) 12:00, May 1, 2013‎

The rules of the organization itself are not necessarily the rules that Wikipedia should follow. It has its own rules. For example, Phi Gamma Delta by its bylaws does not use the three greek letters to represent itself, however there is no specific reason that Wikipedia *has* to follow that. Please read WP:Censor.Naraht (talk) 16:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

It's not about "censorship" at all but about what is most helpful for readers. But you're correct in that sometimes what is most helpful and familiar to readers isn't quite what organizations prefer. In those situations, we side with readers e.g., using common instead of formal names as titles of articles. ElKevbo (talk) 16:16, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Fraternities and Sororities in the lists in the article. continued.

In the discussion that previously was at User talk:Ajsune, the discussion was for listing the entries simply as the greek letters representing the organization such as

• Alpha Phi Alpha

vs

• Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc.
  Additionally the question has occured whether the entries for each organization should reflect the official term for the organization, so that for example
• Alpha Gamma Delta Women's Fraternity.
  Naraht (talk) 16:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Oldest public university in Kansas?

So I hava question… Is Kansas State University the oldest public university in Kansas or is Emporia State University? It says it was founded on February 16, 1863 (Reference is here); HOWEVER, Emporia State University was founded on February 15, 1863. The reference can be found here. So since ESU was founded on Feb. 15, 1863, wouldn't that make ESU the "oldest public university in Kansas" and not Kansas State University? I'm hoping I'm not the only person confused, but maybe I am. Thanks! Corkythehornetfan (talk) 01:44, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Emporia State was not founded until March. Unclear why that page says February, but here's a good history: http://academic.emporia.edu/esrs/vol49/hanschu.pdf _Kgwo1972 (talk) 21:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Corkythehornetfan (talk) 21:33, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Sure! I've also seen the old Kansas statute book that confirms these dates, and will post that link when I come across it again. -Kgwo1972 (talk) 23:22, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

http://www.kansasregents.org/history?print from the Kansas Regents says that Emporia is the first one. Naraht (talk) 01:58, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I had come across that, too, which was another reason that lead me to be confused. The Kansas State Historical Society^{reference here} article says it was a private college, Blue Mont Central College, which was incorporated in 1858. Which then in 1863, a bill was passed so that it would become Kansas State Agricultural College. Thanks! Corkythehornetfan (talk) 03:11, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

OK, here's the 1863 Kansas statute book I referenced above. [6] It shows that Kansas State Agricultural College in Manhattan was created by bill signed on February 16, 1863. And that the State Normal School in Emporia was created by bill signed on March 2, 1863. (Also that the State University of Kansas was created by bill signed on February 20, 1863, to be located in Lawrence or Emporia.) -Kgwo1972 (talk) 16:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the help Kgwo1972! You've been a lot of help! Thanks, again! Corkythehornetfan (talk) 22:29, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

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Ag program

I have added this:

As of 2018, Kansas State offers zero classes about organic farming.

User:ElKevbo has removed it twice. Why this matters to Kansas is explained in the cited source: the state's rural depopulation problem (and the recent difficulties making ends meet for individual farms) is driven entirely by commodity agriculture. Here are a few things that the source says about it:

• Currently, the university offers no—as in zero—organic agriculture classes, a common situation with land grant schools dependent on corporate underwriting
• The central part of the country is one of the least developed areas for organics.
• Organic agriculture creates “hot spots” of economic activity... increasing the number of jobs, raising wages, and reducing poverty across a region.
• “Commodity crops are a race to the bottom,” [Luke Mahin, Republic County’s economic development director] said. “It’s an agricultural system that kills jobs instead of creating them.”

K-State is the home of the Kansas Center for Sustainable Agriculture and Alternative Crops – and yet never offers a class on how to grow organic crops. It's where good farmers go to school to learn the best farming practices. If any place in Kansas was going to offer a good class on organic farming, K-State is the place you'd expect to find it. And they offer nothing. It seems to me that this omission of a lucrative and technically challenging farming method is a valid and WP:DUE criticism of their agricultural program. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:38, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

If prominent scholars or others have criticized the university for not having a program of this kind, explicitly say that. Don't lay out that criticism in a roundabout way or in Wikipedia's voice. ElKevbo (talk) 16:17, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

So you would be satisfied with a statement that "K-State has been criticized for not offering classes on organic farming", but the milder, purely objective statement that they don't offer any classes – one that I doubt anyone would disagree with – is a problem? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, if the criticism is noteworthy. Is the critic a noted expert or did the criticism make any impact? Or is just a lone criticism that has little weight and has had no impact? These aren't leading questions; I genuinely don't know because I have no experience or expertise in agriculture. But we need to answer those questions to determine if this criticism belongs in this article at all and if so how much weight and space it should be given. ElKevbo (talk) 02:47, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

The most widespread criticism is stronger: Most US ag schools, especially (and explicitly) land-grant universities such as K-State, are minimizing organic and sustainable farming practices specifically because they are overly dependent on funding from the large ag chemical and seed businesses.

IMO the milder statement (that they don't teach it) is sufficient for this article. I see the larger issue (e.g., conflicts of interest) as being something that is more systemic. IMO K-State can be faulted for not choosing to offer a class (the horticulture department used to offer a two-credit class a decade ago, so they're capable of doing it), but not for the fact that there is more research funding available from "Big Ag" than from sources that aren't interested in selling conventional farming products. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:20, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

References

K-State Research Exchange

K-State Research Exchange referred to as K-REx is a local branding of Kansas State University's implementation of DSpace.

Kansas State University graduate students are required to submit an electronic version of their thesis, dissertation, or report, and then are made openly available through the K-State Research Exchange (K-REx), and become indexed by search engines.

0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 18:06, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

References