Talk:Kansas City (disambiguation)

City divided

If Kansas City is indeed (as stated on this page) just one city divided over two states, then why not make this page the page about Kansas City, and have the other two pages redirect to it? Or am I wrong? jheijmans

The statement is incorrect. The two cities are now very separate; each with thir own police departments, city councils, mayors etc. I also read-up on the history of Kansas City, Missouri and didn't see any indication that they were ever one city. --maveric149

While the city in general is divided between states (ie., separate) .... it does have interrelated facets [an example is the NA football team, located in Mo, but claimed by Kansans as much as those from Mo]. Being a bi-state area, there are several things that KC'ian share between the 2. The pioneers settled, IIRC, on the missouri side 1st [being the 1st stop on the movement west] ... but they also settled in around KCKS during the same time. It was basically concurrent. I'll in the future edit the page to do a bi-state phenonomena [and dab the other meanings in that article]. JDR 18:37, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It's also politically impossible in the US for one city to be incorporated by two states. -- R'son-W (speak to me/breathe) 21:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Make Kansas City an real article (i.e. not a disambiguation page)

There sure are a lot of links to this page. How about moving this page to Kansas City (disambiguation) and making Kansas City a real article? Or redirecting Kansas City to one of the other "Kansas City" articles? What do you think? Ewlyahoocom 03:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Kansas City should be a redirect to Kansas City, Missouri, which is the larger and more prominent of the two. Most links have the MO city in mind. --- Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} My Great Project 21:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Ehh....this page is kinda messed up, it either needs to be a redirect to KCMO the metropolitan area or a disambig page. Grey Wanderer | Talk 00:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Sometime soon I will either redirect this page to Kansas City, Missouri and create a disambig page or create the disambig page and redirect to it. Any thoughts?Grey Wanderer | Talk 22:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

If it has to redirect anywhere, I think Kansas City Metropolitan Area would be a much better choice than the KCMO article. Plus this article already has some useful summary content written that could easily be merged with the metro article. Erp Erpington (talk) 20:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

A bit late, but I think that redirecting to the Metropolitan Area is the best thing to do. Someone searching for "Kansas City" may want either KCK or KCMo, and outsiders especially may not know at first that there are two cities by that name just across the river from one another. (Believe it or not, some people are not aware of the presence of both Kansas City KS and MO.) Redirecting to the metro article easily solves this problem. It also avoids misinforming people who are really looking for KCK and end up at the KCMO page. And it also avoids upsetting KCK residents who can get quite vocal about being excluded in favor of KCMO. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 08:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, we have a consensus. KCMA Presumptive (talk) 04:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't really have an opinion on KCMA vs KCMO but based on this edit I got to thinking maybe we should just move Kansas City (disambiguation) to Kansas City. Maybe a redirect is better though, I was just wondering what other peoples opinions were. Stardust8212 14:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Umm, I wouldn't claim consensus quite yet. Two editors support a redirect to Kansas City, Missouri, Three editors support a redirect to Kansas City Metropolitan Area, and one editor supports change to a Disambiguation page. I don't feel two terrible strongly on this issue, but seeing as it is undecided as of yet, lets figure it out on the talk page before anything gets changed.Grey Wanderer | Talk 19:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Just as a interesting aside, virtually everything that links here is meant to go to Kansas City, Missouri.Grey Wanderer | Talk 19:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll throw a vote to make it point to the Metro area- having lived in the area most "outsiders" don't realize there's a separation until it's explained to them (see the confusion above on this talk page) and most people who live in the area ignore the distinctions unless they're particularly active in politics or forced to notice. Heck, some people don't realize that the other cities and townships that comprise the metro area mean anything more than different zip codes do within a given city. Now, that isn't to say those separations aren't important- but it does imply that assumption that it should link to a particular city in the Metro area is a bit presumptuous. Redirecting to a disambiguation page is unnecessary, given that the Metro area includes (links to) both "confusable" Kansas Cities, and gets a prominent link to the disambiguation page. As an aside, links that arrive here but intend to go to Kansas City, Missouri should be corrected to link there; last I checked policy is against internal links going through redirects at all, so I'm not sure it really bears on this discussion. Darker Dreams (talk) 08:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Simple rule: Is there a primary usage

Hi. What is the primary usage of "Kansas City"? Is there one use of the phrase "Kansas City" that overwhelms all others in usage, google counts, and page hits? If there isn't, this needs to be disambiguated. It's that simple.--Loodog (talk) 23:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I think a dab page is best for Kansas City due to the potential for confusion with the Kansas and Missouri cities. Almost always, twin cities with the same name call for such. CrazyC83 (talk) 04:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I definitely agree; this is clearly an example where a disambiguation page is warranted. The two main uses seem to be the distinct cities, not the metropolitan area that contains both of them. Yes, potential for confusion can be cleared up at a disambiguation pages - I personally find the current situation confusing, especially seeing as there isn't even a hatnote to either of the "Kansas Cities". Cheers, Rai•me 05:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: I have changed the redirect target to Kansas City (disambiguation). The Missouri city, not the metro area, is the target of almost all incoming links and gets the majority of hits, so it doesn't make sense to redirect "Kansas City" to the metro area article. Still, there is a possibility for confusion between the two cities, so a dab page works best. Cheers, Rai•me 16:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Redirect

Articles on this page have consistently provided disambiguation coupled with replication of information on more specific pages. There has clearly been no consensus on a specific page being the proper redirect target. Given these things, it seems that leaving this page as a redirect to the disambiguation page and focusing work on improving pages specific to locals is the the best way to produce the most complete, coherent, and encyclopedic set of entries while providing the most relevance to all individuals looking for information on the subject. Darker Dreams (talk) 05:24, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Please see WP:CONCEPTDAB, which allows for a type of hybrid disambiguation/content article, exactly as this was before it was reverted. Such a solution has worked well at Football and there's no reason it couldn't work here. This article made a useful target for "Kansas City" links in articles like List of U.S. cities by number of professional sports championships, where some teams are in Kansas and others are in Missouri. Powers ^T 15:11, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Another thing to consider is the issue of Primary usage. Examining "what links here" alone it it clear that upwards of 90% intend to point to Kansas City, Missouri. I would suggest redirecting there and then at the top of that page there should be a link to a disambiguation page. Grey Wanderer (talk) 21:23, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to sum up what the above conversation threads concluded. Honestly just about nothing. I see three editors supporting redirecting to Kansas City, Missouri. I see four editors supporting redirecting to Kansas City Metropolitan Area, and one or two editors for a dab page located here. I would agree with Darker Dreams that nobody really expressed support for what is currently displayed in the mainspace. It is probably best it stays there until there for the duration of this discussion though, as to not favor any of the alternatives under consideration. Grey Wanderer (talk) 21:28, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Well I'm expressing support. It's perfectly within our WP:CONCEPTDAB guidelines and has worked well in other tricky situations. Powers ^T 02:04, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

LtPowers, It does stand to reason that something more than just a simple disambiguation page could be useful in such an unusual situation. Apologies if I didn't include you, I was just trying to summarize the old discussion, and demonstrate that we were far from coming to any sort of consensus. Loodog, For the record I think primary usage is quite clear in this case, this is based simply on my own musing on the actual usage of "Kansas City." The question seems to me is there enough of a gap between common usage Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas to justify directly to KCMO. The issue of primary usage should be considered separately from the issue of what we presume people may or may not know about "Kansas City." Just some thoughts. Grey Wanderer (talk) 02:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Just because there is a protocol that allows for this sort of hybrid disambig page doesn't mean it's the best, or even a good, answer in this case. As it is, this page is redundant to two other pages (Kansas City (disambiguation) and Kansas City Metro Area). What does the current semi-disambig provide that neither of those other pages does. As it is currently written, the page ignores the other uses of Kansas City referenced on the disambiguation page. This isn't a tricky situation, this is a situation perfectly covered by a normal disambiguation page. Better covered by the existent disambiguation page then this page. For future consensus counting, I should be counted as voting for disambiguation, which is a change from above. As for leaving the page as is; for how long? Discussion on this subject has never really been ended, just puttered out. Mostly the discussion has pointed away from this version of the page, though, and it was even converted to a redirect once only to be restored just to retry the summary style. Darker Dreams (talk) 07:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I already gave an example where none of the other pages are suitable links. It frequently happens that someone referring to "Kansas City" means the twin cities, not one or the other, and not the entire metro area (which includes other cities not named "Kansas City", particularly Independence). Powers ^T 12:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that it "frequently happens" that someone means KCK+KCMO, but not the Metro area. To respond directly to your example of sports teams championships; either the links are imprecise (state where the team is from KCK/KCMO/etc) or it's "claimed" Metro wide. Someone from Independence or Olathe will claim the Chiefs just as readily as someone from KCK. Darker Dreams (talk) 20:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you even look at the list article I linked? The term "Kansas City" in that list is applied to the Chiefs, Royals, and Sporting Kansas City. The first two are in Missouri; the third is in Kansas. But they're all in "Kansas City" as an entity. Powers ^T 00:25, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

No, I didn't, and nothing you just said makes me think that was a mistake; wiki pages shouldn't link to a disambiguation page of any type. What you're describing isn't an example- it's something that needs fixed. Darker Dreams (talk) 04:57, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Fixed now, incidentally bringing it into line with other entries like San Francisco and Phoenix. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darker Dreams (talk • contribs) 05:06, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

"Wiki pages shouldn't link to a disambiguation page of any type" -- but that's not true for WP:CONCEPTDABs, which is exactly what this article should be. Arguing that it should be a disambiguation page (or redirect) because nothing should link to it because it's a dab page is circular reasoning. Powers ^T 11:10, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

"This page is redundant to the others that otherwise exist" is not a circular argument though. There is a regular disambiguation page which is not only perfectly servicable but better for non-location purposes, and the KC Metro page provides the same pure location based disambiguation as this page does. It's redundant. I don't see a difference between using a redundant page because it provides disambiguation and linking to a disambiguation page. Darker Dreams (talk) 13:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not redundant; the metro area is much wider than just the twin cities. Powers ^T 15:18, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It took me a minute to realize what you meant by "twin cities." The term might make sense in other places, but not for KC. In this context it's gibberish. As a rule you don't talk about Kansas City outside the context of KCK/KCMO/KC Metro. You might talk about one of those three you might talk about Independance, Olathe, JOCO, Lee Summit, Bonner Springs, Piper, Jackson County, or any of a dozen other subdivisions... but "Kansas City" doesn't apply to KCK+KCMO-surrounding suburbs anywhere I've ever seen or heard. Darker Dreams (talk) 15:48, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I would agree that twin cities isn't really applicable to the Kansas City situation. "Kansas City" in the vernacular only refers to the metro area or the municipality of Kansas City, Missouri. If Kansas City, Kansas is referred to, people specify the "Kansas" part. But Kansas City, Kansas and all the other suburbs are included within the conception of the "Kansas City" Metro Area. Grouping KCK and KCMO together just because of the names is as arbitrary as grouping KCMO and Independence together. Grey Wanderer (talk) 20:33, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

To future clarify, twinning implies a similarity in status. St. Paul and Minnapolis both grew in population separately then merged. However, they have an equilibrium in economic, and cultural importance. KCK experienced it's population growth similarly to Independence, Missouri: As a result of Kansas City, Missouri's suburban expansion. In addition Kansas City, Missouri is the clear central city (vernacular:down town) and cultural center of the entire metro area. What confuses people is the similarity of the names does not indicate a single unit anymore than Kansas City, Kansas and Overland Park are a single unit, or twins for that matter. Grey Wanderer (talk) 20:43, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Just a note; KCK isn't always specified as "Kansas," this usage actually varies even across the Metro. People from KCK/WYCO certainly don't use it automatically, and it's definitely more common in Missouri than Kansas. Granted, the Mo side of the Metro is bigger, but making the assertion that KCK needs to be specified while KCMO doesn't will get you anger from a lot of people. Darker Dreams (talk) 04:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been on the receiving side of that anger a lot on Wikipedia. I think the anger is telling though, it makes one aware of the cultural relationship between the two cities, all the way back to bleeding Kansas and people tend to get angry when you confront an emotional belief with the truth. I know many Kansans would much rather the central city be on the other side of the border, but that's history for you. I dislike the pattern of misinformation that boosters of both cities have spread far to often both here on wiki and in tourist brochures and websites. Grey Wanderer (talk) 05:46, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Not saying anything about which side is central or anything else, just that saying one side is more likely/correctly referred to a particular way is probably more a result of personal bias than facts. Darker Dreams (talk) 08:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

We've wandered from "should this be a redirect" to "what should it redirect too," I suppose. I still vote that it should redirect to the disambig page as the most neutral of all possibilities. Darker Dreams (talk) 08:31, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Darker, discussion seems vigorous right now, but if it putters out again after a week or so and you make the change I won't revert it. There is a quick tell on usage. Use the "what links here" tool and view how the term is used on Wikipedia. I think both that tool and a google search of "Kansas City" easily establishes primary usage in favor of Kansas City, Missouri. It is convention, unless there is a good reason not to that the generic name of the city without the state redirects to the municipality not the metro area (St. Louis is a good example), generally this is what people most often looking for. I would suggest scrapping this page as redundant and redirect to Kansas City, Missouri then providing a prominent disambig blurb at the top of the page. I understand suggesting the redirect go to Kansas City Metropolitan Area, but I feel that solution ignores primary usage in favor of catering to a minority who (because of the same axiom of primary usage) are overwhelmingly likely looking for the Kansas City, Missouri page anyways. It would be immediately clear with a disambig header to those who ended up in the wrong place. Grey Wanderer (talk) 20:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The "what links here" side seems to have been mostly cleaned out except for talk pages (and the rest should probably get the same, as policy is against linking to disambig pages of any type). Both KCK and KCMO have thousands of link-tos and, honestly, I got bored clicking through pages. Google provides an interesting case where searching "Kansas City" does primarily pull Mo based information- but it's pretty easy to tell because both KCK and KCMO use the separator unless the page is trying to indicate metro-wide appeal/application. I was amused to find a comment you left on the Kansas City, Kansas talk page back in 2008 supporting redirecting this to the Metro area over KCMO. Darker Dreams (talk) 04:57, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Haha, I know. I've never felt particularly strongly one way or the other and I'm generally fine with whatever the wiki community decides. However, my opinion has developed towards the KCMO redirect just based on my work on Kansas City related pages and my online fact-finding. Grey Wanderer (talk) 05:03, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It's funny how opinions drift, above you'll see me suggesting KC Metro and now I'm saying disambiguation. Darker Dreams (talk) 13:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It has been a week since this discussion started, two since my initial post, and the discussion seems to have tapered off over the last couple days. Even with the new voice supporting the current quasi-disambig status there is clearly a consensus against that, so I'm returning this to a redirect. There is an open question regarding where it should be redirected to; KCMA, KCMO, or KC(disambig). As a note; linking it to KCMO seems like a good way to bring a whole lot of hate to this page. I'm linking it to the disambiguation page as the most socially neutral and informative option. This may be wrong per general usage, but with the prominance of all primary usages on that page it seems reasonable. Darker Dreams (talk) 08:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. There is solid consensus that this proposal is a fair solution to a rather unique problem. There is consensus on all the major points: that something involving "Greater Kansas City" is the obvious primary topic for the term "Kansas City"; that, accepting this fact, readers are better served being sent to a WP:DABCONCEPT article on "Kansas City" rather than just a standard disambiguation page; and that Kansas City metropolitan area is the article that best fits the DABCONCEPT description for this primary topic. In the future it may be worth discussing moving the metro area article to "Kansas City", but this solution should suffice for now. Cúchullain ^t/c 15:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

---

Kansas City → Kansas City (disambiguation) – Please see football. That's a word that lots of people use different ways, depending on context, but the meanings are (almost) all related, with one common link. Therefore, instead of a useless disambiguation page, we use a conceptual disambiguation page. Kansas City is a "word" that in different contexts could mean different things (see Kansas City metropolitan area, Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas) but for which all the major meanings are related, with one common link. I propose for the base title Kansas City to redirect to Kansas City metropolitan area (if people want to, later they could move that article to Kansas City--that is not my proposal, however). Is that clear?

Summary:

• Almost everyone who types in "Kansas City" is looking for something within a 15-county area in western Missouri/eastern Kansas.
• Currently they get a list of possible locations, which unless you know what exactly you're looking for doesn't help you much.
• We currently have an article that describes adequately the general idea of what Kansas City is, including the two main municipalities.
• That article resides and will continue to reside at Kansas City metropolitan area.
• People who type Kansas City will, should my proposal pass, be sent to Kansas City metropolitan area and will have easy access to the disambiguation page from a hatnote in case they were looking for something unrelated.
• People arriving at Kansas City metropolitan area will quickly and easily be able to find Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas, and also have them contextualized quickly (e.g., someone who doesn't know the difference will learn within the lede paragraph that KCM is bigger and is on the east side of the river, etc.). Reading on, they will find out more information (e.g., that the GM plant is on the Kansas side, or perhaps the demographics on the area as a whole).
• In short, no reader is inconvenienced, except the tiny minority looking for something completely unrelated to what most of us know as Kansas City (for example, Kansas City (film)).

Thanks for your consideration. Red Slash 17:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Red Slash 17:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Survey

• Support. As a disambiguator, Kansas City is on my list of usual suspects, pages for which I frequently fix incoming links. It is very, very rare that the intended target of such a link is not Kansas City, Missouri, which is encompassed within the Kansas City metropolitan area - in other words, an article that says a person is from "Kansas City" is correct if the link goes to the metropolitan area, and is inherently incorrect if the link goes to the disambiguation page, as it does now. bd2412 T 20:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Your argument logical. This page is functioning as a disambiguation page and should be titled as such. I would support a redirect to Kansas City metropolitan area or Kansas City, Missouri. I have argued before that WP:Primary usage makes a clear case for Kansas CIty, Missouri. My experience (and BD2412 above) seems to back this up. Take a look at "What links here" and it becomes pretty clear what the primary usage is. Grey Wanderer (talk) 00:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose – of the two cities and the metro area, there's no clear primary topic. And no good case that there is has been presented by nom. Dicklyon (talk) 06:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Granted that there's no clear primary topic (like at football) - please see WP:DABCONCEPT. Red Slash 15:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - Not precise (or accurate) enough Already precise and accurate as is (damn my grammar)! WP:PRIMARYTOPIC could be (un)clear, but neither city is historically significant enough, despite high stats for Missouri city and secondary big stats for Kansas one and the metro area. Also, I don't think non-American people are familiar with "Kansas City"; in fact, they would assume only one "Kansas City, Kansas". --George Ho (talk) 18:34, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Which, George Ho, is all the more reason why they should be directed straight to a WP:DABCONCEPT article. Red Slash 02:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
    • Are you saying that "Kansas City" is the broad concept of the metro area or one of the well-known cities? To me, I still don't see the metro area as broad or more significant than another. --George Ho (talk) 03:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
      • It's the concept of this area in between Missouri and Kansas along the Kansas River, and the metro area's article does a good job explaining that. I again compare this to football; we've got a single article here that can do the main task of explaining Kansas City, and if someone wants more specific details on one of the municipalities that compose what most people would call "Kansas City", those links will be readily apparent. Red Slash 03:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
        • I doubt that even doing a good job of explaining justifies a broad concept. And I don't think Los Angeles metropolitan area is a broad concept. Also, "football" and "Kansas City metro area" are two different things. "Football" is a broad term of sport based on using foot to play ball. "Metro area" is a collection of urban and suburban cities closely related or closer to the central city, like Los Angeles. You forgot the stats I give you; 400 each look for the Kansas one and the metro area, while 1500 looked for the Missouri ones. --George Ho (talk) 03:59, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
          • I would be willing to bet an arm and a leg that a significant amount if not majority of the hits on the KCK page were people landing there on accident because of how often Kansas City is assumed to be in Kansas outside of Kansas/Missouri. Grey Wanderer (talk) 04:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
            • I don't know; the dab page is less visited. --George Ho (talk) 14:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
              • George, Kansas City, Missouri is clearly historically significant, much much more so than Kansas City, Kansas. All of the articles linked from here (that aren't cities) are songs and movies about Kansas CIty, Missouri. Take a look at what I've written below.

I stroke my comments, but I still stick to my vote. While the Missouri one met "usage" and "long-term significance" criteria, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, those criteria are not absolute. Even metro area and Kansas one might meet one or two criteria but fall below Missouri's level. How about other criteria? According to history, there were early settlers, like Native Americans and Lewis & Clark; first came Town of Kansas, then Kansas City in Missouri, and another Kansas City in Kansas. But the article about the Kansas one isn't absolute; probably the city is not well-researched in terms of history. We can't assume that Kansas one is less significant than Missouri one. Even article quality prejudices the consensus on criteria of primary topic of the same name. --George Ho (talk) 18:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Why exactly can't we say that one is more significant than the other, any historian of American history would tell you the same. You're correct that the history of KCK is not well-researched as it is a relatively small contribution to the history of the metropolitan area as a whole and lacks national significance, unlike KC proper. What's this about Lewis and CLark and how are they applicable here? Not trying to be rude, but I'm interested in a solution. What is the article about Kansas not "absolute" about? Grey Wanderer (talk) 12:55, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Umm... the article can be expanded anytime, can't we? Also, there is more to the history than what the article says. I said "Lewis and Clark" because I read History of the Kansas City metropolitan area. I may not know much about the KCK, but there is a photography book of Kansas City, Kansas, and photos have greater educational value. --George Ho (talk) 04:52, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok, There is a communication gap between us. I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing sometimes. What is this about the article being expanded? What does that have to do with anything I said above? I'm very well versed in the history of the area as a whole including the history of KCK. I don't think a picture book demonstrates anything meaningful. There is one made of every little village Missouri and I imagine that's true for Kansas as well. Check out the main amazon listings for Kansas City and you'll see dozens upon dozens of full-fledged history books on Kansas City, Missouri. As far as I know, there is one published history of Kansas City, Kansas and it's a history of the entire county. Photos have greater education value than what? why is this relevant? Grey Wanderer (talk) 05:14, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Rereading you response I wonder if you think my argument for a primary topic is somehow based on article content or quality. Am I thinking right?

You're correct. You said Missouri is significant and popular more than any other, but that's all there is. --George Ho (talk) 05:22, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Article content and quality is not all there is. Nor is it relevant in anyway and I don't believe I've evoked it as such. Kansas City, Kansas could be a featured article and it would not change the significance of the subject. I've refereed you to census data, history books, google stats, and article view stats. Overwhelmingly the biggest arguments come from a cultural and historical significance standpoint. I draw this conclusion from knowledge of the area and after reading countless books on KC and it's surrounding area; though I am also familiar with the content on Wikipedia; which is regrettably lacking in many respects. I am genuinely interested in answers to the questions I've asked above. Grey Wanderer (talk) 05:30, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I misjudged or misread your comments a lot, so I won't answer those questions, including the Lewis and Clark one. Back to the "significance" part; you are free to say that one is primary topic because it is more significant than other. But I can't consider Missouri one the primary topic based on intriguing significance. As I said, "significance" is not an absolute criterion. Whether it is a strong or weak criterion in this case is determined by consensus. While Missouri has many notable events, Kansas one went through a tornado and an ice storm. And I'm sure that there are notable infrastructures in Kansas one. But I found no currently-active airports in Kansas; just Fairfax Airport, which is defunct. Category:Kansas City, Kansas has plenty, but articles do need improvement. --George Ho (talk) 06:09, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support. The proposal actually makes sense for the readers, especially those outside of the US who are less knowledgeable of the politics and naming in the area. If they land on the dab page, I suspect that many reader don't know what the correct link would be. With an article that covers the area, they don't need to decide on the best target. As they read the article, they can follow a link for more information if they are interested in a particular city or something else. When I say Kansas City, I don't know what I'm referring to but the area article would actually make sense for me. We need to consider the primary topic here with a touch of WP:IAR. So if this makes sense, then do it! As far as LA goes, that is a different discussion and really should not influence this one since the case is different. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:45, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
  • WP:IAR is applicable only when ALL rules, including WP:policies and guidelines, prevent us from improving. Unfortunately, it is misused by those either not reading well or overlooking, and I'm afraid that you missed something. Per WP:DABCONCEPT, "The primary topic of a term is a general topic that can be divided into subtopics[, and] it is useful to directly address the scope of the term, and the history of how the concept has developed." Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, "There is no single criterion for defining a primary topic," but either usage or historical significance is relevant. Neither topic is more significant than the other, but Kansas City, Missouri, is the most popular. Per "WP:policies and guidelines", policies and guidelines must not contradict each other, and rules must be followed. Contradictory guidelines, however, can be ignored in favor of common sense. Nevertheless, to change rules, consensus must be in favor of amending or repealing the rule. And I can ignore WP:DAB and follow other rules, like the WP:AT. (But sometimes, connecting WP:DAB and WP:AT would make sense.) Per WP:CRITERIA, a name must be concise, recognizable, accurate, precise, natural, and consistent. Metro area" fails to qualify for the name "Kansas City" without more words. Redirecting "Kansas City" to "Kansas City metropolitan area" without changing the page name wouldn't make sense, especially when the metro area isn't that popular. --George Ho (talk) 18:07, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support You make a good case for a DABCONCEPT article. I would personally favor a move to Kansas City in the future, but we can stick with this for now. --BDD (talk) 17:48, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support, mostly per nom. Makes sense to me and probably will more so to readers. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Kansas City, Missouri primary topic

Given the discussion above this seems like a good time to make the case for Kansas City, Missouri as the primary topic for the term Kansas City. This issue is complicated given the uniqueness of the situation and can be emotionally charged due to a long-standing rivalry between Missouri and Kansas. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC gives two considerations:

• Usage A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.

• Long-term significance A topic is primary for a term, with respect to long-term significance, if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.

Kansas City, Missouri fulfills both of these requirements as the central city of the Kansas City metropolitan area. The towns of North Kansas City and Kansas City, Kansas both founded as pre-WWII inner-ring "streetcar" suburbs and both took their names after the central municipality. These towns were never able to compete with Kansas City, Missouri for economic, cultural, and governmental institutions. Check out a google search for "Kansas City historic maps also check out the historical census population trends, KCK is comparable to Kansas City, Missouri's western suburb of Independence, Missouri in population and always a fraction of Kansas City, Missouri. In the aspect of "Long-term significance" Kansas City, Missouri is clearly the primary topic.

In regards to "Usage" the case is a bit more ambiguous. Kansas City, Missouri is twice as likely to be linked by "What links here" and a google search revels twice as many hits as "Kansas City, Kansas". It is also more likely to be searched for than all other topic combined according to Wikipedia page hits. Wikipedia has a good chance here to help clarify this murky issue. Grey Wanderer (talk) 08:41, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

This is absolutely anecdotal, but it illustrates the point well: Try using Google Street View, first in Downtown Kansas City, Missouri then in Downtown Kansas City, Kansas this is a crude but illustrative way to demonstrate the notability difference between the two. In addition, you'll notice that a google search for "Kansas City" brings up the Wikipedia article for "Kansas City, Missouri". Grey Wanderer (talk) 08:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Nonetheless, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, there are no absolute criteria for the primary topic. While usage and significance are top two criteria, there could be other criteria not shown. --George Ho (talk) 17:42, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Like, for instance, how there's no way to draw a clear line between the metro area and the larger city in Missouri. Do their notabilities overlap? Talk:New York has struggled with this as well. Red Slash 19:52, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Nor do we need to. New York City, and St. Louis are both located directly at those namespaces. While that may not be appropriate here, a redirect would surly be right in line with this and other large North American cities. What other criteria George? What does do their notabilities overlap mean? Grey Wanderer (talk) 12:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Note that NYC is not directly located at its base name, "New York". If the state just north of Pennsylvania were named Buffalonia instead of "New York", NYC would surely be located at New York. Red Slash 03:23, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

As a former Buffalonian, I heartily endorse this proposal. Viva Buffalonia! --BDD (talk) 17:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 7 December 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Despite one support, the majority speaks against it. (non-admin closure) George Ho (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

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Kansas City (disambiguation) → Kansas City – "Kansas City" now redirects to Kansas City metropolitan area per RM three years ago. While the metro area might fit the criteria of a broad-concept article, being a "broad concept" may not be a fitting description of the primary topic, which is decided by us consensus, not the tools or any other, though the tools influence us to decide which is the primary topic. Also, the metro area fails the criteria to be the "Kansas City" that readers are looking for, which I explain in the Discussion section. Statistics prove that the metro area has less hits than the one in Kansas and in Missouri, the most popular of all. Those typing just "Kansas City" are not easy to examine or analyze as the statistics reveal that they may not be looking for the metro area at all. George Ho (talk) 08:56, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Survey (2)

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support As an English language, non-American-based user of Wikipedia, I find the current DAB page the most useful place to land when searching for "Kansas City" as it explains what that term actually means. I do not find the proposed set up nearly so helpful. --MrStoofer (talk) 12:06, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:CONCEPTDAB. The current setup is far more sensible than a list of locations, since almost everyone wants the MO/KS cities and this article covers both of them. I'm not seeing a good reason why the current setup, which was clearly backed by consensus and has not been met with any complaints for the three years it's stood, warrants undoing. Nohomersryan (talk) 12:45, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I remember the last RM. George was one of only two opposers, so there should be no reason to believe that there is any consensus for retaining the DAB page as primary. I guess that, three years later, he wants that proven to him, so I'll repost BD2412's comment, which sums up why this is the best option: "It is very, very rare that the intended target of [a link to Kansas City] is not Kansas City, Missouri, which is encompassed within the Kansas City metropolitan area - in other words, an article that says a person is from "Kansas City" is correct if the link goes to the metropolitan area, and is inherently incorrect if the link goes to the disambiguation page." Taylor Trescott - ^{my talk} + _{my edits} 13:50, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'll second BD2412's comment. I think the last RM came to the right conclusion. Leave it alone. — Gorthian (talk) 17:52, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per the above. The current setup seems the best, as the metro area serves as WP:CONCEPTDAB for all the other topics. Kansas City is one of those places where the community is substantially wider than the central city, as can be seen from the existence of Kansas City, Kansas. Sending readers who search "Kansas City" to the metro area gives them information on the wider community known as Kansas City; sending all readers to a dab page would just send them all to dead ends. The page view stats suggest that people looking for the either of the two municipal Kansas Cities are not having trouble finding them.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:06, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

In fact, I'd go far as suggest that we move Kansas City metropolitan area to the base name Kansas City.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:11, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Most readers read the lead section (and the infobox), and many just stop after the lead and then move to another article or somewhere, while others might read further. Numbers don't tell us whether the readers read the whole articles, however.

Anyhow, let's review the criteria for "Kansas City":

• Recognizability - The majority of readers are thinking the city in Missouri. Readers may distinguish among the Missouri one, the Kansas one, and the metro area.
• Naturalness - As said, we can't tell which "Kansas City" the readers are searching for. Are they searching for the metro area or the Missouri one?
• Conciseness - "Kansas City" looks ambiguous to me. I don't refer it much as the metro area. Also, it is too short to be concise.
• Preciseness - Obviously not precise; it redirects to the metro area, which does not use the base title to begin with.
• Consistency - Not in the same league as New York City or Oklahoma City; not the same as New York metropolitan area or Oklahoma City metropolitan area. "Oklahoma City" is more primary than its metro counterpart. Not sure what to say about "New York" as there is New York state.

I can't treat the above as "rules", so if the criteria are not enough, read what the section says: "Redirects should be created to articles that may reasonably be searched for or linked to under two or more names (such as different spellings or former names). Conversely, a name that could refer to several different articles may require disambiguation." Unless the metro area is what the readers typing just "Kansas City" are actually searching for, the consensus of previous RM may have mistaken "Kansas City" as the metro area due to the "broad-concept" definition. --George Ho (talk) 09:28, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Moving last year's stats from rationale post; the same as this year's. --George Ho (talk) 10:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

More stats of other contenders, though nothing compared to the metro, Missouri, and Kansas. --George Ho (talk) 18:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 24 March 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 04:05, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

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Kansas City (disambiguation) → Kansas City – The search term “Kansas City” is being redirected to a page that’s not even the primary topic for that search term, the Kansas City metropolitan area. Kansas City, Missouri receives far more page views than Kansas City metropolitan area. There’s no reason why a search for “Kansas City” shouldn’t land at a disambiguation page Mrbeastmodeallday (talk) 00:27, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:CONCEPTDAB and what I said above: "The current setup is far more sensible than a list of locations, since almost everyone wants the MO/KS cities and this article covers both of them. I'm not seeing a good reason why the current setup, which was clearly backed by consensus and has not been met with any complaints for the three years it's stood, warrants undoing." Nohomersryan (talk) 01:24, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WP:DABCONCEPT for example Cambridge/University of Cambridge and Liverpool/Liverpool F.C. even though the sub topics get less views [[1]]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:46, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. There are multiple "Kansas City" so a disambiguation is completely fine. Sdmarathe (talk) 14:44, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. WP:DABCONCEPTs rarely work as well as their proponents promise, but this is one that does. —  AjaxSmack  21:39, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.