Talk:Kandern

To "the," or not to "the"

In the phrase "the Black Forest Academy", the definite article is standard English usage. It isn't part of the title (it isn't capitalised, and isn't part of the link), but names of this form normally take an article. See, for example "the High Street" — the "the" isn't part of the street's name, but it's almost invariably added in conversation and print. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Mel, it seems that this may be a difference between British English and American English. Anytime that I am discussing a street name, I never hear people refer to "the Elm Street," or "the Sycamore Avenue." Even so, I think a more analagous situation would be other educational institutions. In the United States, we have "Harvard University," and "Boston College." In all my years, I've never heard either referred to with a definite article. The opposite may be true for something like "the University of Oxford," but this is an American school (80% of students and 95% of staff from US and Canada), and it is not "the Academy of the Black Forest." To me, the article is just not right.--Evadb 07:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

"Elm Street" isn't descriptive in the way that "Black Forest Academy" ("Academy of/in the Black Forest") or "High Street" are. One wouldn't say "the Oxford Street" either. If it is a difference between U.S. and British English (which I doubt, but I'll ask my U.S. students on Tuesday what their natural approach would be), then we should stick with British English, as has been discussed endlessly at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, because Kandern is within the E.U. That the school is American is irrelevant (we don't change style of English within an article; if an article on Kansas mentions that there's a British company in the state, we don't use British English just to talk about it, and then switch back to U.S. English).--Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't really understand your distinction between Elm Street, High Street, and BFA? Also, what of "the Harvard University," and "the Boston College?" I'm ready to be enlightened.--Evadb 05:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

"High" and "Black Forest" are both adjectival as well as nominal, while "Elm" is purely nominal. City, town, county names, etc., in such combinations are generally treated as purely nominal, while names of regions and geographical features are taken as being also adjectival (thus, one would refer to "the South Bank Polytechnic" but to "Middlesex Polytechnic"). "Harvard" isn't descriptive at all, and "Boston" is a city.

There are also differences between how the nouns involved are treated, which can override the point above. One would say "the Warwick Grammar School" (though omitting the article would also sound right), but "Warwick University", for example.

It's true that I'm trying to give a precise and clear-cut explanation of what native (British-)English speakers do without thinking, and matters are more complex than this. What also complicates matters is that there's often a very localised dialect among members of a company or other institution (I used to work for a Language school whose name was pronounced by everyone in a certain way — except for those of us who worked there). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps your reasoning is a bit too complicated for me, Mel. It seems that when 100% of the staff and student body of the school refer to it as "Black Forest Academy," with no article, then that is how it should be referred to in the Wikipedia. I used to live near North Avenue back in the states. It was so called because it formed the northern boundary of the municipality where I lived. This was descriptice and nominal, but I never heard anyone refer to it as "the North Avenue." I just don't get it. Also, you refer again to what British-English speakers say, and my reading of the Manual of Style says that this has no bearing on BFA whether or not Kandern is in the EU.--Evadb 19:12, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not what one limited group uses, but what is used generally (people in Oxford almost always refer to university College, Oxford as "Univ", and St Edmund Hall, Oxford as "Teddy Hall", but though that's mentioned in their respective articles, it's not how they're referred to.

I don't know where the the MoS talks about the EU – there was a very long discussion of this sort of question some months ago – though it does state clearly: "Each article should have uniform spelling and not a haphazard mix of different spellings, which can be jarring to the reader." This is normally taken to mean, not only that one shouldn't spell the same word differently in the same article, but that one shouldn't switch back and forth between varieties of English. I've asked at the Talk page. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The Manual of Style says that "If an article's subject has a strong tie to a specific region/dialect, it should use that dialect." ([1]) The large percentage of people living in Kandern obviously speak German (or Alemannisch). There is a large population of English-speakers, though, and they invariably refer to the school as "Black Forest Academy." The difference that I see between "Teddy Hall" and "Univ" is that BFA is NEVER referred to as The BFA...except by you ;) --Evadb 05:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've raised this at the MoS Talk page; could you leave it until there's been a response? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Mel, doesn't the MoS already cleary state that the American usage should be maintained? If you read my previous comment, it confirms that if an area has linguistic ties to one form, then that should be used. As near as I can tell, Kandern has ties to German, Alemannisch, and (North) American English. If you agree that this is a difference between your British usage and my American usage, then it seems pretty clear to me. Have a great day.--Evadb 07:23, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

1. Kandern doesn't have linguistic ties to North America. A U.S. school in the area doesn't count, as I've argued above. The discussion at the MoS Talk pages involved the point that the EU specifies British, not U.S., English as one of its official languages. I'm still waiting to hear back froma query I've left concerning the result of that discussion.
2. It's not, in any case, a question of U.S. vs British English (unless you can provide a citation to that effect). I've now spoken to a number of U.S. students and coleagues, and they all agreed that they'd naturally refer to "the Black Forest Academy", and that omitting the definite article sounded odd. Your argument seems to be that we should use the form favoured by a very samall group pf people who work there; I've already pointed out that there are often very local dialects of that sort, which Wikipedia shouldn't follow. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd still argue that several hundred Americans (and a few Canadians) living in a town of 8.000 Germans is more than you make it out to be. As for the difference between US and British English, the only proof that I can give you is the Americans that I know. All I can think of is having all the Americans that I know write a letter to you. Something, though, tells me that you won't accept that as a legitimate citation ;) Perhaps your students have been in the UK too long. One last question that I have is why shouldn't the Wikipedia follow local dialects? If the meaning is still clear to most English speakers, why shouldn't we respect the local differences? Thanks.--Evadb 12:30, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, perhaps the Americans (and Canadians) have been in germany too long? Seriously, though. most of the people I've spoken to have been here for about six months or so, with a couple being more permanent residents. I don't think that "local variants of English" should go down to the (unverifiable) usage of people who work at a particular school...

I'm hoping that the article can be left alone until my question at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style has been answered, though. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

In spite of the fact that I cringe everytime I read it, I'll leave it YOUR way until someone else has a chance to comment. I'm not sure that the opinions of your students are as good as the opinions of those at BFA. If my college professors had ever asked me to back them or some schmuck on the internet, I would not have batted an eye. Blessings.--Eva ^db 15:23, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to think that these students are independently minded — but I didn't give them the chance, because I didn't say whose version was whose. I should emphasise, though, that I don't take my informal (and unverifiable) survey to take the place of a citation. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Mel, I wanted to ask a quick question of you. If someone were to found a university in the Smoky Mountains of the southeastern United States, how would you refer to the university in every day conversation. I would naturally call it "Smoky Mountain University." Would you refer to it as the "Smoky Mountain University?" I'm just trying to determine how we arrive at such different natural tendencies on BFA.--Eva ^db 07:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, "University" generally doesn't take "the" in such cases, though "the Smoky Mountain University" doesn't actually sound wrong (as "Smoky Mountain" is the sort of geographical term that does take "the").

As the discussion at the MoS Talk page seems firmly on the side of using British English in articles on EU-related articles, and as you seem convinced that this is a U.S./U.K. difference (though, as I've said, I'm not convinced of that), I'm surprised that you've changed the article despite saying that you wouldn't. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Mel, I still fail to see how your usage is any more verifiable than mine. Let's call is "Smoky Mountain High School," and ask the same question. I am not at all convinced that this is a US/UK difference. You were the one that made the post on the MoS. Exactly what makes some geographical terms take an article and some not? Whether or not this is a US/UK difference, it seems like a case of he said/he said. If you can show me something definitive to back up your claim, I'll relent. If not, I don't see how you're verifying it. Sorry that I went back on my word. I thought I had you with my last message.--Eva ^db 19:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

If you look back over the discussion, you were the one to claim that it was a U.S./U.K. difference; I've consistently said that I doubted that. You seem to have changed your mind only after I asked the question at the MoS Talk page.

I've just Googled, though, and found the following citations for "the Black Forest Academy" just on the first page, including the academy;'s own Web page: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Mel, looking back at the discussion, the first instance of the UK/US suggestion was my statement: it seems that this may be a difference between British English and American English. I fail to see this as an firm declaration on my part that it was such a difference. I just noticed that you're British and I'm American and different things sounded right to me. As for your citations, it would seem that they just as equally support my side of things. Most use the phrase without the article as well. The Black Forest Academy webpage that you cite is not even talking about the school. It's talking about "The Black Forest Academy Creative Writing journal." You're going to have to do a bit better than that to convince me on this one :) --Eva ^db 09:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, but you continued to argue that U.S. English should be used because the German town contains a U.S school, which was why I raised the question at MoS. More importantly, though, Googling raised a copuple of thousand hits for "the Black Forest Academy", and though a few may use it in a longer noun phrase (such as my mistaken example which you point out), that leaves nearly two thousand that don't. A few more: [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18]... A number of these are written by current or ex-staff of the Academy. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

My point was that if this was a difference in UK/US English, then the article drop the article because the school is American. Your several examples and the 2000 hits on Google still don't answer my question from earlier. I don't see how this is verifiable simply because some people use it on their webpages. Many (I'd say probably more, though I haven't the time to count) will probably have the name without the article...and this includes the school itself. It still seems like it's your word against mine, unless you can find something verifiable.--Eva ^db 16:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Mel, I just read your edit summary on your last revert. As you mentioned, a Google search for "the Black Forest Academy" yields a couple thousand results. However, if you search for simply "Black Forest Academy," you get 16,500 results. That seems like a great majority in the favor of my view on things. Also, searching on the bfacademy.com domain name for "the" turns up only three items. The first is the "the Black Forest Academy creative writing journal" mentioned earlier, and the other two are references to "The Black Forest Academy staff" and " the Black Forest Academy website." This seems pretty conclusive to me.--Eva ^db 17:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

1. Your claim was that the form without "the" was used by all employess of the Academy; some of the links that I provided involved employees using that form.
2. Of course there'll be more Google hits using the search term without "the": it includes all the ones with "the", as well as uses in context where "the" would be inappropriate, such as titles, etc.
3. We've managed on the whole to keep this reasonably civil, but I'm afraid that you seem to be trying to escalate things. So far as I can see, your only reason for reverting, despite saying that you wouldn't (and you've still provided no citations, only general references to numbers of hits), is now that you personally prefer the form without "the". Your attempt to make it a U.S./U.K. difference, together with the oddly colonialist claim that U.S. English should be used in an article on a German town simply because it contains an American school, has collapsed in the face both of the many examples of U.S. uses of my preferred form and of the discussion at Talk:MoS. Your claim that it's the universal usage among employees of the Academy has also been shown to be incorrect. You now seem to be reduced simply to an unreasoning insistence on getting your own way.
   This is a minor issue, and I had intended a little while ago to drop it, but I must admit that your behaviour has changed my mind. That's probably wrong of me, and perhaps in the end I'll just let you have the last word that you seem so desperately to want, but at the moment I'm feeling irritated that a lot of patient presentation of argument and evidence seems to have been brushed aside by you because it doesn't fit your preferences. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Mel...I'm sorry if I've come across as uncivil. That was certainly not my intent. I agree that this is a relatively minor issue. The world will continue spinning if the article remains in the article. I've tried to be civil, but obviously you've not taken things that way. I suppose that is the joy of having conversations using written messages instead of our voices. If this is exchange is getting to you, I'll just leave it alone for a while. Perhaps we can come back to it when you've cooled down a bit. Thanks.--Eva ^db 07:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It's true that I was getting more heated than the issue warrants (partly, it's probably true to say, because it's third week of a fairly heavy term), for which I apologise. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem. Keep this on your watchlist, and we can return to the discussion when we've both cooled down a bit. Peace.--Eva ^db 08:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

the High Street

Mel, I seem to have just caught on to your example of the "High Street" from your earlier messages. I had not looked at the high street article, and thought that you were simply refering to a street that was named "High Street". This was definitely a case of UK/US usage, as the equivalent term in the US is Main Street. Even so, we never refer to "the main street" in any context that I've heard. When I was growing up, there was a road down the block called "High Street." To us, it was simply the same as "Maple Street" or "First Avenue." No 'the' in site.--Eva ^db 08:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I realize this discussion is a couple years old, but I thought I'd add my "two cents" (American or Euro). I was the communications director of Black Forest Academy (without "the" in front of it) from 1989 to 2000. I never used "the" Black Forest Academy in publications or on the Web site. That sounds bad in American English. Our publications and Web site were aimed at a North American audience, so I was writing to the audience. Having studied at "the" University of Stirling (Scotland) for my Master's Degree in Public Relations I'm familiar with British English and drove my instructors mad with my Americanized papers. I tend to write for the "ear" as do most Americans. I would add "the" to an institution's name if it contains the preposition "of" -- the University of Pennsylvania, the University of Stirling -- but I would write Ohio State University, Cambridge University. Hope this helps. Julian Richter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.234.82.211 (talk) 20:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC)