Talk:Kamrupi dialects/Archive 1

Untitled

This article is about the Kamrupi dialect, as known in the scholarly literature. References are given in the article.

Chaipau (talk) 10:17, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

False Misleading

• Kamrupi is not a dialect of Assamese.

• What is your linguistic framework and basis that made you to propagate that Kamrupi is a dialect of Assamese?

Kurmaa (talk) 03:44, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:TALK, please do not spread discussion of one issue across multiple talk pages. We are already discussing this elsewhere. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ã?? 'f?????~?~nl?]} 12:43, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

• Does it matter whether I ask this question here or somewhere else? You neither ask this question nor you did address it in a manner appropriate.

• Why have you been using ranghar image like emblem of Assam state? Or is this emblem of Assam state?

Kurmaa (talk) 18:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Why Wikipedia uses derogatory term Lower Assam

• Lower Assam is a derogatory term created by people with Ahom ethnocentrism as well as supremacy behavioural commonalities.
• Scholar like Banikanta Kakati used Western Assam for undivided Kamrup within Assam boundary, see http://archive.org/stream/AssameseitsFormationAndDevelopment/Assamese#page/n61/mode/2up
• Why Wikipedia uses derogatory term Lower Assam? It is a humiliation for Kamarupi / Kamrupi.

Kurmaa (talk) 04:31, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Kamarupa kingdom (Quote mining)

The reference given for "Kamrup kingdom" is quote mining. The reference given (Chandra Bhushan, Assam: its heritage and culture, (2005)" is a very poorly written book. The author is called a "young journalist" (p8), who was visiting the state and his academic credentials are suspect. The book itself contains no inline reference (or even a list of reference) and is full of inaccurate statements. Here are some examples:

• "Not even a single script, inscription or authentic matter of antiquity is available" (p13), whereas we have Kamarupa inscriptions
• Calls Bakikanta Kakati a historian (p15)
• Calls Suniti Kumar Chatterji an archeologist (p17)

To name just a few. This is a dubious book. Please remove the reference to this. Chaipau (talk) 12:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Since BBhagawati has tried to buttress his claim with two other references, I have removed Chandra Bhushan from the set of three references. Chaipau (talk) 15:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• With kingdom use Kamarupa, i.e., Kamarupa Kingdom.
• What is Bakikanta Kakati?

Kurmaa (talk) 20:43, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Dialect of Bengali

What is being claimed by calling Kamrupi a dialect of Bengali? That the dialects of undivided Kamrup district are Bengali dialects too? Or that the dialects of North Bengal, which are now considered Bengali dialects are also called Kamrupi dialects (actually they are called Kamatapuri, Rajbanshi etc.) Chaipau (talk) 12:03, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Nowhere in the referenced text does it say that Kamrupi is a Bengali dialect, just that it is difficult to say which whether it belongs to Assamese or Bengali, to illustrate a point---that dialects are independent of literary language. ([1]) It quotes Sunitikumar Chatterji's assertion that not only the West Bengali and the North Bengali dialects are independent of each other, but that both are independent of literary Bengali. This makes very good sense.

Similarly one could rightfully claim Kamrupi dialect is independent of literary Assamese. And this too makes very good sense. But the reverse is not true. Literary Assamese is not independent of Kamrupi dialect, nor is it independent of eastern Assamese. The calamitous event, from the Kamrupi point of view, was the loss of linguistic prestige (Goswami 1970). But the remedy he suggests in more Kamrupi influence on standard Assamese (Goswami 1970, p35). They were prophetic words since (Goswami&Tamuli 2003) has asserted that this is well underway. The point here is that Wikipedia is perfectly poised to report on the struggles of the Kamrupi dialect, but it should not participate in it by making outlandish claims.

Chaipau (talk) 12:11, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

What is being claimed by calling Kamrupi a dialect of Bengali? That the dialects of undivided Kamrup district are Bengali dialects too? Or that the dialects of North Bengal, which are now considered Bengali dialects are also called Kamrupi dialects (actually they are called Kamatapuri, Rajbanshi etc.)

Refer to quote saying "Assam was practically an extension of North Bengal, from its geographical position, so far as its speech and early history were concerned", which means North Bengal and Assam or Kamrup are one political entity historically and by speech and got divided when North Bengal included in Bengal, this division of Kamrup lead to divison of Kamrupi too.

— Bhaskarbhagawati , — (continues after insertion below.)

The quote says "Assam was ...", whereas you claim "North Bengal and Assam ... are". Yes, in the past, North Bengal and Assam constituted the Kamarupa kingdom, and the speech associated with it was the Kamarupa Prakrit, which is different from the Kamrupi dialect of today. So you are again committing the same crime of equating a modern form of speech with something about a thousand years ago. Chaipau (talk) 04:07, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

The quote says "Assam was ...", whereas you claim "North Bengal and Assam ... are". Yes, in the past, North Bengal and Assam constituted the Kamarupa kingdom, and the speech associated with it was the Kamarupa Prakrit, which is different from the Kamrupi dialect of today. So you are again committing the same crime of equating a modern form of speech with something about a thousand years ago.

Then check quote by same author which specifically mentiones Western Assam.

Nowhere in the referenced text does it say that Kamrupi is a Bengali dialect, just that it is difficult to say which whether it belongs to Assamese or Bengali, to illustrate a point---that dialects are independent of literary language. ([2]) It quotes Sunitikumar Chatterji's assertion that not only the West Bengali and the North Bengali dialects are independent of each other, but that both are independent of literary Bengali. This makes very good sense.

Read properly it says "The spoken languages/dialects of North Bengal and that of Western Assam today are substantially the same, as they seem to form one dialect group."

— Bhaskarbhagawati , — (continues after insertion below.)

And in the very next line, it says "The Rajbonshi dialect that is spoken in the northern areas of West Bengal is very similar to Kamrupi of Assam". So even though they are very similar they are not the same. Chaipau (talk) 04:07, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

And in the very next line, it says "The Rajbonshi dialect that is spoken in the northern areas of West Bengal is very similar to Kamrupi of Assam". So even though they are very similar they are not the same.

Then look for above line which says its similiar and forms one dialect group.

Similarly one could rightfully claim Kamrupi dialect is independent of literary Assamese. And this too makes very good sense. But the reverse is not true. Literary Assamese is not independent of Kamrupi dialect, nor is it independent of eastern Assamese. The calamitous event, from the Kamrupi point of view, was the loss of linguistic prestige (Goswami 1970). But the remedy he suggests in more Kamrupi influence on standard Assamese (Goswami 1970, p35). They were prophetic words since (Goswami&Tamuli 2003) has asserted that this is well underway. The point here is that Wikipedia is perfectly poised to report on the struggles of the Kamrupi dialect, but it should not participate in it by making outlandish claims.

Don't give your personal assumptions but full quote of scholar.

bbhagawati (talk) 16:37, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I just gave the full quote from the author. The author clearly believes the north Bengali and Kamrupi dialects are similar but different. Chaipau (talk) 04:07, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I just gave the full quote from the author. The author clearly believes the north Bengali and Kamrupi dialects are similar but different.

You have given your personal POV only not any new quotes. If you are unable to provide opposing scholarly views, then please withdraw, it will save valuable time of people engage here for some time.

bbhagawati (talk) 08:03, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Chaipau's personal POV happens to coincide with that of the sources you've provided. As I have explained at Talk:Kamarupi Prakrit, the area in question exhibits what's called a dialect continuum where linguistic boundaries are arbitrary. This is most likely what the author means by "dialect group." This doesn't mean that Kamrupi is equally a dialect of Bengali.

Bbhagawati, it's looking more and more like you've got an axe to grind on this topic, which is impeding your ability to fairly evaluate the content of sources. We're trying to produce an article that is factually accurate and with a neutral point of view. Your recent edits have undermined that effort by putting forth a WP:FRINGE viewpoint that is not backed up by the body of sources on the topic. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 13:16, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I like to know what is your personal views on sources provided and exactly what wordings of source will convince you or you are looking for, so that accordingly i can search for same. Sole reason it seems Chaipau not providing any new quote is that it probably not echo what he is trying to convey. I also urge you interpret the sources on your own (ignore if you are already doing it) rather what Chaipau's observations says. Only reason Chaipau is here because of another dispute in another article, where he credited something to his community but i disputed the same. It seems to be a personal attack but i think its necessary to reveal the same.

bbhagawati (talk) 14:04, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I have responded to this below. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 14:01, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, let us look at both the sentences together, as it appears in the text: "The spoken languages/dialects of North Bengal and that of Western Assam today are substantially the same, as they seem to form one dialect group. The Rajbonshi dialect that is spoken in the northern areas of West Bengal is very similar to Kamrupi of Assam." Clearly the author says that the Rajbanshi dialect of North Bengal is similar to Kamrupi dialect of Assam. Implicit in this statement is the assumption that Rajbanshi and Kamrupi are different. If you claim Rajbanshi is identical to Kamrupi, then the above sentence can be paraphased as "Kamrupi is similar to Kamrupi". I know you like sentences like this, but they are ridiculous. Furthermore, Kamrupi and Rajbanshi cannot form a dialect continuum either, because there is yet another dialect group that is placed between them: the Goalparia dialect (which you have tempered with, btw). Chaipau (talk) 21:58, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Source clearly says its similiar and same dialect which is established by scholars as its used to be matter of controversy (not now anymore) because with inclusion of North Bengal in Bengal by cutting it from Kamrup, language spoken there claimed as dialect of Bengali same way as Assamese was claimed as dialect of Bengali before. Its the linguistic survey of India that established that both Kamrupi and Assamese are different from Bengali. Your biased interpretation is hilarious.

Answer to merge issue is - Assamese entered into Kamarupa or western Assam where this speech was first characterised as Assamese. This is evident from the remarks of Hiuen Tsang who visited the Kingdom of Kamarupa in the first half of the seventh century A.D., during the reign of Bhaskaravarman.

— Bhaskarbhagawati (14:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)), — (continues after insertion below.)

The problem with you, BBhagawati, is that you mine quotes and use them outside of the context. "Assamese entered into Kamarupa" does not mean that when the language entered Kamarupa it entered in the form that is called Assamese today. Sunitikumar Chatterji has called the group of dialects in Kamarupa the Kamarupa Apabhramsa dialects. No one has claimed that the language that Hiuen Tsang heard in Kamarupa in the 7th century is Assamese. In fact Banikanta Kakati avers that a fully differentiated Assamese language did not arise till the 14th century, long after the demise of the Kamarupa kingdom. To pluck a sentence from Upendranath Goswami's book to make this claim is preposterous. Chaipau (talk) 21:58, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Answer to similiarity to Kamrupi Bengali is - Eastern Magadhi Prakrita and Apabhramsa into four dialect groups (1) Radha-the language of West Bengal and Orissa (2) Varendra-dialect of North Central Bengal (3) Kamrupi-dialect of Northern Bengal and Assam and (4) Vanga-dialect of East Bengal.

bbhagawati (talk) 14:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Please look at Suniti Kumar Chatterji's original work. He uses "Kamarupa" dialects of Assam and North Bengal, not "Kamrupi". The "Bhawaiya" book is not a reliable source precisely for this reason, because it takes liberty with what it attributes to others. Chaipau (talk) 21:58, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem with you, BBhagawati, is that you mine quotes and use them outside of the context. "Assamese entered into Kamarupa" does not mean that when the language entered Kamarupa it entered in the form that is called Assamese today.

That this means that was not Assamese or language don't changes with time.

Sunitikumar Chatterji has called the group of dialects in Kamarupa the Kamarupa Apabhramsa dialects. No one has claimed that the language that Hiuen Tsang heard in Kamarupa in the 7th century is Assamese. In fact Banikanta Kakati avers that a fully differentiated Assamese language did not arise till the 14th century, long after the demise of the Kamarupa kingdom. To pluck a sentence from Upendranath Goswami's book to make this claim is preposterous.

This shows disregard for efficient sources like Upendranath Goswami and misinterpreation of different sources.

Please look at Suniti Kumar Chatterji's original work. He uses "Kamarupa" dialects of Assam and North Bengal, not "Kamrupi". The "Bhawaiya" book is not a reliable source precisely for this reason, because it takes liberty with what it attributes to others. It already shown that Kamarupa or Kamrup is not a name of language but name of region. We have here two interpretations, one by you other by scholar, I think you have edge even over scholar. It seems you have only interpretations to make no to the point sources. Other thing is when scholarly views goes against your views, you seem to disregard the same, which you done in case of Banikanta Kakati in case Assam article (but used it to advantage in same time) and now Upendranath Goswami. Misleadings leads nowhere.

bbhagawati (talk) 02:50, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Mukherjee

I've been asked to reproduce the quote where Mukherjee takes a look at the relationship between Assamese and Bengali in this book on page 252:

The spoken languages/dialects of North Bengal and that of Western Assam today are substantially the same, as they seem to form one dialect group. The Rajbongsi dialect that is spoken in the northern areas of West Bengal is very similar to the Kamrupi of Assam. It is not easy to decide whether these dialects should be categorized as dialects of Assamese or of Bengali. Linguists believe that these "dialects are independent of literary speech, and as such, East Bengali dialects, North Bengali dialects, (with which Assamese is said to be associated) and West Bengali dialects are not only independent of one another, but also they are not, as is popularly believed, derived from literary Bengali" (Chatterji 1970, 108). The processes through which a language or a dialect is pronouced as such are, therefore, more connected with the processes through which they have found their way into people's minds and voices, than with linguistic reasons.

Chaipau referred to this to highlight the Chatterji quote. Bbhagawati has ignored this quote and made the case that it actually says the opposite of what Chaipau claims. Let's break it down

• The spoken languages/dialects of North Bengal and that of Western Assam today are substantially the same, as they seem to form one dialect group
  • As I've said above, when Mukherjee says "dialect group" here, he's referring to a geographic dialect continuum. Because the statement that these varieties form one dialect group is a dependent clause, it's clarifying the previous clause. He's saying that the various dialects are "the same" in that you can group them together into a dialect continuum. He is not saying that they are grammatically the same or that they are actually one dialect. They are similar to each other in ways that prompts one to group them together. It's clear that he sees them as separate varieties because he refers to them as separate "languages/dialects." Note that he uses this phrase to remain neutral as to where linguistic boundaries are, this is something he does for rhetorical purposes, poising himself to make the point that the linguistic boundaries in this case are political, not linguistic.
• The Rajbongsi dialect that is spoken in the northern areas of West Bengal is very similar to the Kamrupi of Assam
  • Here, Mukherjee is elaborating on the previous bullet point, citing a specific example that very explicitly contradicts the edits that Bbhagawati has been trying to include into the article. Mukherjee sees the dialects as similar, but he can't say that they're the same. This means that they are separate. Note that, even here, Mukherjee is remaining neutral to language borders, saying that Kamrupi dialect is spoken in Assam, not that it is a dialect of Assamese. This, again, is because he is building up to the point that the divisions between these dialects is political, not linguistic.
• It is not easy to decide whether these dialects should be categorized as dialects of Assamese or of Bengali.
  • This is a subpoint to Mukherjee's overall point. Because comparing the dialects' grammars won't provide an answer to linguistic boundaries, the linguistic divisions are instead political.
• Linguists believe that these "dialects are independent of literary speech, and as such, East Bengali dialects, North Bengali dialects, (with which Assamese is said to be associated) and West Bengali dialects are not only independent of one another, but also they are not, as is popularly believed, derived from literary Bengali" (Chatterji 1970, 108).
  • Mukherjee is using Chatterji to add another subpoint that leads to his overall point. Not only are dialects' present grammars insufficient for establishing language boundaries, but we can't even look at their historical development. The criteria for linguistic boundaries must, therefore, be political.
• The processes through which a language or a dialect is pronouced as such are, therefore, more connected with the processes through which they have found their way into people's minds and voices, than with linguistic reasons.
  • This is a very convoluted concluding sentence. By itself, it either doesn't even make much sense or is horribly wrong. However, given the context where he's built up several subpoints, it's clear that what he's trying to say is that the criteria for how dialects are divided up is not linguistic, but social.

To look at this and say that Mukherjee is saying Kamrupi is exactly the same as a Bengali dialect is quote mining. This is what I was referring to when I mentioned your difficulty in fairly evaluate the content of sources. You have repeatedly shown a predilection for ignoring the context of sentences, which severely impedes your ability to understand what the authors clearly mean. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 14:01, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Good now interpret other sources too so that i can give a overall reply for same. In meantime also see this indirect source from book Intertext:A Study Of The Dialogue Between Texts by R.Kundu "In Bengal there are three major streams of the Manasa Mongal (1) the radh style (Western part of the state); (2) The East (now Banglades) and South Bengal style; (3) the North Bengal and Kamrup (now Assam) style".

Here point two is of same case as of Kamrupi, same language divided when East Pakistan and later Bangladesh was formed, author credited the both in one point because same case as point three. And who is Mukherjee ?

bbhagawati (talk) 16:07, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Sipra Mukherjee, the author of the piece you quoted. Of course you won't know who you are quoting, because context means nothing to you. Chaipau (talk) 19:16, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Am I being asked to interpret cherry-picked quotes without their context? Bbhagawati, have you even been paying attention? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 20:30, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

[Quote from Barmā (2004) p. 101]:

The history of the origin and development of Rajbanshi or Kamrupi speech form is related to that of Bengali. The linguists have more or less accepted the view point of Grierson and Suniti Kumar Chattopadhyay that Bengali has originated from the Magadhi Apabhramsa. Grierson noticed the linguistic unity of North Bengal and Assam and pointed to Magadhi as the common source of all the Eastern dialects.

"Magadhi was the principal dialect which corresponded to the old Eastern Prākṛta. East of Magadha laid the Gauda or Pracya Apabhramsa, the headquarters of which was Gaud in the present district of Malda. It spread to the South and Southeast and there it became the parent of Modern Bengali. Besides spreading southwards Gauda Apabhramsa spread to the east keeping to the north of the Ganges and there it is represented at the present day by Northern Bengali and in the valley of Assam by Assamese. North Bengal and Assam did not get their language from Bengal proper but directly from the West Magadhi Apabhramsa, which in fact, may be considered as spreading out eastwards and southwards in three directions. To the Northeast it developed into Northern Bengali and Assamese, to the South into Oriya and between the two into Bengali. Each of these three descendants is equally directly connected with the immediate common parent and hence we find North Bengali agreeing in some respects rather with Oriya, spoken far away to the South than Bengali of Bengal proper of which it is usually classed as a sub-dialect."

Based on the materials of the Linguistic Survey of India, Suniti Kumar Chattopadhyay has divided Eastern Magadhi Prākṛta and Apabhramsa into four dialect groups (1) Rāḍha-the language of West Bengal and Orissa (2) Varendra-dialect of North Central Bengal (3) Kamrupi-dialect of Northern Bengal and Assam and (4) Vanga-dialect of East Bengal.

Here is the full quote for one of them.

भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 03:40, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I've taken a look at the source in question. I've already addressed the issue of ancestry and dialect continua, and this source simply reinforces what I've said about the matter.

The most relevant part of this quote, the four-way classification, might seem at first to back up Bhagawati's claim that Kamrupi is both Assamese and Bengali, but notice that Barmā is only indicating the geographic location of Kamrupi speech. He is not saying "Kamrupi-dialect of Bengali and Assamese."

It is possible that the same dialect is considered Bengali on one side of the border and Assamese on the other. Barmā does some thorough linguistic research, but his statement isn't enough to prompt us to make such a claim here.

Does anyone have access to Chattopadhyay's Grierson's Linguistic Survey of India? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 15:56, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Barma's book is not a book on linguistics and it is rather lax on scholarship. The Magadhi origin of Bengali (from Grierson and Chatterji) is indeed the majority opinion among linguists. But then he mentions Gauda Apabhramsha, which is a form of proto-Bengali that Muhammad Shahidullah has created in a challenge to the Magadhi origin of Bengali. So Barma here is quoting two different linguistic schools without qualifications, and by not attributing it correctly. The linguistic positions in Barma's book are very confused.

As far as "Kamrupi-dialect of North Bengal and Assam" is concerned, he is not reproducing accurately what Chatterji has written. Chatterji writes "Kamarupa" dialects not Kamrupi, and he is referring to the Apabhramsha dialects, not the modern dialects; that is the Apabhramsha dialects prevalent in the Kamarupa kingdom which included both North Bengal and Assam in the same political unit. Chatterji's "Origin and Development of the Bengali Language" is not available online, but Grierson's "Linguistic Survey of India" is available here. I have referred to Chatterji here. Chaipau (talk) 18:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I see that I misattributed the Linguistic Survey of India to Chattopadhyay; Chattopadhyay is the work that we'd want to look at to at least see the source of Barmā's confusion. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 00:05, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Sipra Mukherjee, the author of the piece you quoted. Of course you won't know who you are quoting, because context means nothing to you.

I accept that i missed the author of particular chapter but that should not taken as chance for personal attack. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 05:05, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

This what Suniti Kumar Chatterjee meant by Kamarupa - One would expect one and identical language to have been current in North Central Bengal (Pundra-vardhana) and North Bengal and West Assam (Kamarupa) in the 7th century, since these tracts, and other parts of Bengal, had almost the same speech. Here is the link. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 00:25, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

We have gone over this argument before. You seem to not get the point. 7th century was the time of the Kamarupa kingdom, and that is why Chatterji calls it Kamarupa. That kingdom, at the time of Bhaskarvarman included the entire Assam, as it is today, plus North Bengal, Gauda Mymensingh and Sylhet, besides probably Manipur and other regions. (BN Puri (1968) "Studies in Early History and Administration in Assam"). If you go a few centuries back, Oriya too would fall within this speech, so why stop at just the 7th century? But what we are discussing here is the Kamrupi dialect, the dialect group of undivided Kamrup. The onus is on you to show us evidence that the modern dialect is a dialect of Bengali, without the crazy extrapolations you are resorting to. Chaipau (talk) 00:43, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

It is possible that the same dialect is considered Bengali on one side of the border and Assamese on the other. This is what i am trying to convey. And i like to know is sources provided here and in main article are enough or we need more sources. Thanks ! भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 17:19, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Didn't I already say what I think about the sources provided? Take another look. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 17:40, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

There is a dialect that is claimed as dialect of both Assamese and Bengali---Western Goalparia. Here is an obituary on Pratima Barua Pandey that touches on the Bengali-Assamese tussle over Goalparia. Kamrupi lies further to the east, and at the heart of Assam. I have not seen Kamrupi claimed as a dialect of Bengali in all that I have read except here on Wikipedia! Chaipau (talk) 17:58, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Quote boxes

I've removed four quoteboxes, which were used as basic references which is not what quote boxes are for. Boxed quotes are for highlighting quotations of extreme importance to the topic, not simply for supporting claims. If quotations of literature are required they should be in footnotes. ·?aunus·snun?w· 19:44, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Kamrupi not Assamese

As this article is about Kamrupi, word Assamese should not be used as synonym for work of same because it will create confusion due to the fact that Goalparya, Eastern Assamese and Central Assamese are also refered as Assamese.

bbhagawati (talk) 15:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• Assamese shall not be used as synonym for Kamarupi or Kamrupi in any writing in Wikipedia.
• Bengali shall not be used as synonym for Kamarupi or Kamrupi in any writing in Wikipedia.

Kurmaa (talk) 20:11, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Why Western Assamese and North Bengali (both named Kamrupi) are dialect continuum

Suniti Kumar Chatterjee says:

(i)One would expect one and identical language to have been current in North Central Bengal (Pundra-vardhana) and North Bengal and West Assam (Kamarupa) in the 7th century, since these tracts, and other parts of Bengal, had almost the same speech.

(ii)Eastern Magadhi Prakrita and Apabhramsa has four dialect groups (1) Radha-the language of West Bengal and Orissa (2) Varendra-dialect of North Central Bengal (3) Kamarupa-dialect of Northern Bengal and (west) Assam and (4) Vanga-dialect of East Bengal.

(iii)Assam was practically an extension of North Bengal, from its geographical position, so far as its speech and early history were concerned.

Sukumar Sen says:

(i)Oriya and Assamese have intimate relations with Bengali. All three were the same language initially. There is not much difference between Kamrupi dialect of Bengali and Assamese. Assamese has differed from Kamrupi in the modern period because of inclusion of innumerable Deshi words.

As well as authors like Joshua Fishman, Ofelia Garcia in book Handbook of Language and Ethnic Identity:The Success-Failure Continuum in language and ethnic identity efforts says:

(i)The spoken languages/dialects of North Bengal and that of Western Assam today are substantially the same, as they seem to form one dialect group.

bbhagawati (talk) 15:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Please give page numbers for these references and the quotes directly from the text without any editing.

Sukumar Sen clearly meant two different dialects Kamrupi of Bengali (which is known as Kamatapuri, Rajbanshi etc) and Kamrupi of Assamese (which is what we are discussing here) because he is talking about a difference between the two. So dialect of Bengali is wrong.

The dialect continuum is not trivial. There is the North Bengali group of dialects. On the Assam side, there is western Goalparia, eastern Goalparia, and then Kamrupi (Nalbaria, Borpetia, Kamrupia etc) All of them show significant differences and richness. Any division at the present time just will be arbitrary.

Chaipau (talk) 16:51, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Please give page numbers for these references and the quotes directly from the text without any editing.

So look it yourself, for

S.K Chatterjee (i) page 79 (ii) It is provided by you too in Kamarupi Prakrit talk page, so no need for verification, (iii)Page no. 103

Sukumar Sen (i)Page no. 103

Joshua Fishman, Ofelia Garcia (i) Page no. 252

Sukumar Sen clearly meant two different dialects Kamrupi of Bengali (which is known as Kamatapuri, Rajbanshi etc) and Kamrupi of Assamese (which is what we are discussing here) because he is talking about a difference between the two. So dialect of Bengali is wrong.The dialect continuum is not trivial.There is the North Bengali group of dialects. On the Assam side, there is western Goalparia, eastern Goalparia, and then Kamrupi (Nalbaria, Borpetia, Kamrupia etc) All of them show significant differences and richness. Any division at the present time just will be arbitrary.

We will put here something near what author says not what your personal interpretations says.

bbhagawati (talk) 17:24, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

So answer me this: when Sukumar Sen says "There is not much difference between Kamrupi dialect of Bengali and Assamese." he is talking about the difference between what? Chaipau (talk) 17:30, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

So answer me this: when Sukumar Sen says "There is not much difference between Kamrupi dialect of Bengali and Assamese." he is talking about the difference between what?

Kamrupi dialect of Bengali and Assamese

So Kamrupi dialect of Bengali and Assamese are two different things. Because there is a difference (however little) between them. The geographical extend of the Kamrupi dialect is given as between Goalpara and Purnea ([3]). Thus by Kamrupi dialect of Bengali, Sukumar means the North bengali dialects. Chaipau (talk) 18:12, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

So Kamrupi dialect of Bengali and Assamese are two different things. Because there is a difference (however little) between them.

Even Nalbarya and Barpetya are little different, and got divided due to creation of separate districts. Same in case of Assamese Kamrupi and Bengali Kamrupi.

Thus by Kamrupi dialect of Bengali, Sukumar means the North bengali dialects.

This fact is not a matter of dispute, infact claimed by me.

bbhagawati (talk) 15:03, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Edits of concern

(i) User Chaipau written here that Kamrupi thus gradually lost its prestige position as literary activity shifted to eastern Assam and the literary language acquired aspects of the eastern dialect.This process was complete when the American Baptist Mission started publishing the monthly periodical Arunoday in 1846. Where reality position is that Kamrupi as literary language spread to Asian kingdom of eastern Assam from western Assam, so anybody can decide that it lost its prestige or further gain it. And American Chrisitian missionary first published Bible in eastern Assamese sameway like tribal languages of North East India like Khasi, Naga etc. not Arunoday, so i am not sure its a matter of prestige or not. I have shown it correctly as per sources but User Chaipau keep on editing it.

(ii)It is written that The first examples of Assamese writings appear in the 14th century whereas Upendranath Goswami says They cannot furnish the grammatical structure of Kamrupl or Assamese for which we are to turn our attention to the songs of the Buddhist Siddhacaryas, known as Caryas, composed in between 8th to 12th centuries A.D.

bbhagawati (talk) 15:51, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

(i) Prestige (sociolinguistics) is a sociolinguistics issue, and I am quoting Goswami 1970 directly on this.

(ii) The "They" in Goswami's quote refers to the Kamarupa inscriptions, and he is right. Even though Caryas contain elements of Assamese, they cannot be called "Assamese". Goswami too agrees that the earliest Assamese writing is from 14th century: "The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati..." (p5)

Chaipau (talk) 16:38, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Prestige (sociolinguistics) is a sociolinguistics issue, and I am quoting Goswami 1970 directly on this.

Put the quote here.

The "They" in Goswami's quote refers to the Kamarupa inscriptions, and he is right. Even though Caryas contain elements of Assamese, they cannot be called "Assamese". Goswami too agrees that the earliest Assamese writing is from 14th century: "The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati..." (p5)

Read again it says They cannot furnish the grammatical structure of Kamrupi or Assamese for which we are to turn our attention to the songs of the Buddhist Siddhacaryas, known as Caryas, composed in between 8th to 12th centuries A.D.

bbhagawati (talk) 16:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Prestige quote given in text.

"In Hiuan Tsang's remarks the earliest reference about the Assamese language is found. The copper plate inscriptions present some idea about the language as regards its phonology and vocabulary. But they cannot furnish the grammatical structure of Kamrupi or Assamese..." (p4) Here "They" definitely refers to the copper plate inscriptions. Chaipau (talk) 17:23, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

The "They" in Goswami's quote refers to the Kamarupa inscriptions, and he is right. Even though Caryas contain elements of Assamese, they cannot be called "Assamese". Goswami too agrees that the earliest Assamese writing is from 14th century: "The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati..." (p5)

He refered to writer not writings because authors of Kamarupa inscriptions or Charyas are unknown.

— Bhaskarbhagawati , — (continues after insertion below.)

The Charya poets are known because they put their names in the padas themselves (Charyapada#Poets). Chaipau (talk) 02:00, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

In Hiuan Tsang's remarks the earliest reference about the Assamese language is found. The copper plate inscriptions present some idea about the language as regards its phonology and vocabulary. But they cannot furnish the grammatical structure of Kamrupi or Assamese..." (p4) Here "They" definitely refers to the copper plate inscriptions.

Why discussing something else when i am refering to Mr. Goswami's comments regarding early Assamese and Charya.

bbhagawati (talk) 17:41, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

You do find examples of Assamese features in the Charyas, but they are not Assamese. They are written in a mixed language. Not just the Charyas, but Chandidas' Krishna Kirtan too. According to Kakati there are three periods, Early Assamese (14th-17th century), Middle Assamese (17th-19th century) and Modern Assamese (19th-present). Goswami agrees (p5). Further, that Goswami makes a distinction between Early Assamese and the present Kamrupi dialect can be seen here: "In the writings of the early Assamese writers...reflections of the Kamrupi dialect are evident." (p6) Chaipau (talk) 18:37, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

The Charya poets are known because they put their names in the padas themselves (Charyapada#Poets).

Then i will go with article, see very first poet mentioned Luipa, its says his writings are undoubtly are in early Assamese.

You do find examples of Assamese features in the Charyas, but they are not Assamese. They are written in a mixed language. Not just the Charyas, but Chandidas' Krishna Kirtan too.

Poets like Luipada has rendered their parts in authentic old Kamrupi or Assamese, it makes the one of the few early examples which is echoed by Mr. Goswami (given here) and others (will give if asked for).

According to Kakati there are three periods, Early Assamese (14th-17th century), Middle Assamese (17th-19th century) and Modern Assamese (19th-present).

Kakati here refers to organised literay activities not few scattered examples which is in case of Charya and Kamarupa inscriptions. Kakati says

The course of this evolution was continuous ; for the sake of convenience of reference it has been divided into four stages : (1) Early M.I.A. comprising the language up to the inscriptions of Asoka. (2) Second M.I.A. coming down to a few centuries before Hemachandra.(3) Early modern Indian including (so far as Bengali and Assamese are concerned) the Caryapada.(4) Modern Assamese.

Further, that Goswami makes a distinction between Early Assamese and the present Kamrupi dialect can be seen here: "In the writings of the early Assamese writers...reflections of the Kamrupi dialect are evident.

This is the difference between modern and medieval Kamrupi. And look for other sources that says Western Assamese or Kamrupi was sole literary language of ancient and medieval Assam. Even old Kamrupi is little different from modern or medieval one but still its a same language. Same in case of modern Kamrupi lokgeets (folksongs), little different from spoken Kamrupi. While ancient Western Assamese was influenced by Prakrit due to direct root, medieval was effected by languages like Brajavali and modern was by eastern Assamese and others.

So very few works are in pure Kamrupi.

And most important thing is that language spoken natively in Assam in first millennium is different from Magadhi Prakrita as remarked by Chinese traveller, so same should be called as early Assamese as it cannot appear suddenly in one day directly in 14th century.

bbhagawati (talk) 15:03, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Assamese & Bengali Behavioural Commonalities

(i) Prestige (sociolinguistics) is a sociolinguistics issue, and I am quoting Goswami 1970 directly on this.

(ii) The "They" in Goswami's quote refers to the Kamarupa inscriptions, and he is right. Even though Caryas contain elements of Assamese, they cannot be called "Assamese". Goswami too agrees that the earliest Assamese writing is from 14th century: "The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati..." (p5) Chaipau (talk) 16:38, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• Assamese claims Kamarupi / Kamrupi scriptures as Assamese.
• Bengali claims Kamarupi / Kamrupi scriptures as Bengali, see A Catalogue of Bengali manuscripts (1948) Cooch Behar State. -Here Kamarupi / Kamrupi scriptures are enlisted as Bengali.

Similarly,

• Assamese claims Kamarupi / Kamrupi a dialect of Assamese.
• Bengali claims Kamarupi / Kamrupi a dialect of Bengali.

What direction Wikipedia shall take?

Kurmaa (talk) 04:12, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Kamarupi or Kamrupi - an endangered language

Kamarupi or Kamrupi is am endangered language.

This language is not listed in the list of official languages of India, as a result, any government grants are not available to help this language.

Right now this language is spoken by about 2.9 to 3.25 millions people that live in India, Bangladesh, Bhutan and relatively small number in Nepal.

Kurmaa (talk) 02:16, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

This is not a general forum for the topic. The talk page should be geared towards improving the article. If you want the article to reflect that Kamrupi is endangered, you'll need to find reliable sources that say as much. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 14:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Review Progress

Everybody is categorising Kamrupi of North Bengal and Western Assam in one single point. So what is review progress ? भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 18:09, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

As scholars like Upendranath Goswami and Suniti Kumar Chatterjee tracing Kamrupi to first millennium and showing it as sister dialect of Radhi, Vanga and Varendari combining to form eastern Magadhi Prakrita, keeping in view no major opposing sources or views, it is quite a strong contender for merge and subsequently renamed as Kamrupi. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 04:08, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Please specify the references from Goswami and Chatterji. From what I see, they do nothing of the sort. Chaipau (talk) 02:18, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Here are a few points that refute your positions. Please address them before bringing your claims above again and again.

• "Bengali dialects cannot be referred to a single Primitive Bengali Speech, but they are derived from various local forms of late Magadhi Apabhramsha, which developed some common characteristics that may be called pan-Bengali" (Chatterji, ODBL, p139)
  • A similar claim is applicable in Assamese, and eastern Assamese, Kamrupi, Goalparia etc have developed independently from the local forms of the late Magadhi Apabhramsha. So it is natural that you will find traces of Kamrupi dialect in the 7th century speech. The point is you would find traces of eastern Assamese too in the same 7th century speech.
  • Kamrupi and eastern Assamese are dialects of Assamese not because either eastern Assamese is derived from Kamrupi or vice versa, but because they have developed common linguistic features. Besides a common literary language, literature etc.
• "Eastern Magadhi Prakrit has been divided into four dialect groups by scholars like Dr Chatterji. Kamarupa dialect comprising Assamese and the dialects of North Bengal is one of them. So it becomes necessary to see how much Kamrupi is related to North Bengali" (Goswami, "Kamrupi dialect" p177)
  • Here, Goswami is referring to Chatterji's tree given in ODBL p140 and partially indicated here.
  • Whereas Barma in his book "Bhawaiya" created confusion by calling the Apabhramsha dialect "Kamrupi", Upendranath Goswami in the above passage clearly distinguishes between the two spellings "Kamarupa" and "Kamrupi". Therefore, "Kamarupa dialects" are local forms of Magadhi Apabhramsha, localized in the Kamarupa kingdom. If you look at the list of dialects given under North Bengali dialects in Chatterji's ODBL, you will find west Goalparia, but not Kamrupi. So Chatterji does not claim Kamrupi is a Bengali dialect.
  • Goswami makes it clear that the "Kamarupa" dialect is a type of Magadhi Prakrit (or Apabhramsha).
  • Kamarupa dialect is a sister dialect of Varendari, Vanga and Radhi (all localized forms of Magadhi Apabhramsha), not Kamrupi (modern dialect).
  • Goswami is seeking to look at the similarities between Kamrupi, a dialect of Assamese (the eastern branch of the Kamarupa dialects), and North bengali (the western branch of the Kamarupa dialects).

Thus, your views are strongly opposed and rendered untenable by both Goswami and Chatterji. Chaipau (talk) 10:26, 5 September 2012 (UTC)