Talk:KC-X

NGC Pulling Out

On 8 March 2010, Northrop Grumman decided to not submit a bid for the KC-X tanker stating that they believe the new evaluation methodology favors Boeing's smaller tanker despite nearly unchanged requirements . The bolded words are the disputed addition. I removed those words becuase they are a)factually incorrectm and b)aren't supported by the source. a) NGC decided not to bid because there was little different between the draft and final RFP, not despite it. b) The source doesn't directly reference the difference between the draft and the final RFP. It says that NGC doesn't think the requirements have changed between the earlier competiton that it won and the current one. If that's the change you were talking about, then that needs to be said it a much different way. It would need to note that it's only NGC saying that they "feel" like the requirements haven't changed; the actual requirments have change substantially (to favor the smaller tanker). Does that make sense? -SidewinderX (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

It mainly seems the evaluation criteria has changed and fixed price provisions were added compared to 2008/09 RFP. -Fnlayson (talk) 23:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I think that NG deciding to nobid is the only factual area that is reportable on the wiki page. The page probably shouldn't get so complicated that it explores the requirements of the warfighter... but of course we do have the collective talent here to do so. So in a nutshell the customer decided that they really want a white car, not an off white car but with a bonus big trunk, and Northrop cannot supply a white car, so they pull out. What is reportable? Northrop pulls out. In this case, the customer wanted a plane that Northrop has decided it cannot supply as efficiently as Boeing. From the nobid, "[the customer's] selection methodology defined in the RFP...clearly favors [a] smaller refueling tanker... Northrop Grumman fully respects the Department's responsibility to determine the military requirements for the new tanker. " Sliceofmiami (talk) 00:51, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I think that since we have some reliable info on "why" they pulled out that is worth including as it answers a question that a casual reader may have. - Ahunt (talk) 14:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree with that, but what I think all of us are questioning is what is reliable. We certainly can't use NG as a source that says "Hey, you guys are fixing the bid for Boeing and changing the requirements!" That would not be reliable. I put a quote directly from Northrop as to why (NG/Airbus believes they cannot supply the plane the AF wants), what is your suggestion? Sliceofmiami (talk) 23:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

As long as the quote is attributed to the company then that is fine: "Northrup Grumman claimed that they pulled out because..." - Ahunt (talk) 00:13, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

So "Northrop Grumman claimed that they pulled out because...'[the customer's] selection methodology defined in the RFP...clearly favors [a] smaller refueling tanker.'" I'm not sure that is a neutral statement. The "clearly" word is from Northrop's point of view, not from a NPOV. Sliceofmiami (talk) 00:30, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

That is the point of attributing the quote, quotes don't have to be NPOV and in fact almost never are as they represent one party's opinion. Basically if you write "NG pulled out because..." and cite NG then yes that has an NPOV issues, but if you write "NG say that they pulled out because..." then that is clear that it is their opinion and may just be a spin they are putting on it. If another source claims that NG pulled out for some other reason then that can be added as well and will help balance the article, if it is available. - Ahunt (talk) 00:44, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

References

Indian bait and switch

The problems in India are reported to be clearly related to the KC-X contract. EADS built the Indian sales into their pitch for making the American plant feasible, then simply never delivered. Hcobb (talk) 00:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

It's probably best in the A330 article, but certainly shouldn't be here, as A330 co-production had no bearing on the competition itself. - BilCat (talk) 00:18, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• That text was moved to EADS/Northrop Grumman KC-45#Production_plans. It seemed to be a more relevant place. -fnlayson (talk) 00:25, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

This detail has nothing to do with the technical aspects of the EADS Tanker. It was a side deal that EADS signed so that they could bid a lower price for the KC-45 because the cost of building the facility would be spread over more total airframes. Without the Indian contract the tankers have the same capabilities, but higher per-unit costs simply because the overhead is less spread out. Hcobb (talk) 00:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

It's a side deal related to production, not the competition itself. It's only commone sense to try to spread out costs. In effect, Boeing has done that for 30 years with the KC-767. I'm not sure why Airbus didn't just sell them A330s off the European production line, but considering the source, that's no suprise to find shoddy reporting. Hopefully we'll get better details in other sources. - BilCat (talk) 00:53, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

This is a different article on the same story, and a bit more understandable. From that source, it appears that Flyington Freighters was the fist customer of the A330-200F, but the first delivery has been to Etihad Airways. That, and the fact they should have been delivered over 2 years ago, appears to be the issue here, which was not celar at all from the first source, if only because of TLDR syndrome - I tried to read it all, but it was quite a chore! - BilCat (talk) 01:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Fact. Fact. Fact. Fact. Opinion. Fact.

Spot the odd one out. For some reason, there is a paragraph dedicated to Loren Thompson's opinion, leading with the incredibly meaningless weasel "subtle pattern of bias". I'm surprised I have to seek permission on the talk page to remove it, it's so egregious. In the entire section, that is the only opinion piece linked, a piece which spends most of its time muckracking on EADS subsidies, yet forgetting what the WTO said about Boeing. It makes the article look really NPOV doesn't it, the inclusion of solely his opinion. Pianosoon (talk) 23:12, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

If you didn't spot the odd one out, it's this. Pianosoon (talk) 23:13, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• Humm, looks like a duck, duck, goose game. ;) Only the first sentence with "subtle pattern.." is really opinion. The second sentence is correct. The Senate hearings did delay the review meetings with contractors. The first sentence can go as far as I'm concerned. -Fnlayson (talk) 00:53, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

And the Senate hearings is too limited in temporal scope to stand anyway. Hcobb (talk) 04:05, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I restored the phrase that noted the almost inconsequential, "tennis club" sentence meted out to Michael Sears, and supplied a cite. The amount of the intended theft to be achieved by rampant corruption in the larcenous deal would have been a $100 billion overcharge to taxpayers. There are over 200 prisoners in California doing life in prison for shoplifting. In that sort of context, I would think the Sears sentence would be notable for its astonishing leniency, even in this era of corporate wrist slaps. Activist (talk) 08:11, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

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