Talk:Justify My Love

edit my mrlopez2681 on Jan 28, 2013

I removed the following passage from the section discussing the music video: Much of the imagery echoes an obscure French music video that came out in 1988. Unless one can reference the "obscure french music video" in question, this passage is of little use to anyone. --Mrlopez2681 (talk) 08:47, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Trip hop?

"Composed as a midtempo song, "Justify My Love" is a trip-hop inspired song"

Urm, did trip hop even really exist at the time? She/they must have been listening to a lot of underground English alt hip hop! In other words, can we find a source--TangoTizerWolfstone (talk) 16:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The trip hop genre was not in the article for its first eight years. It was added by CaliforniaDreamsFan back in August 2012 with this major edit, changing a bunch of text and adding some refs. The refs are as follows:

• Musicnotes.com citation, lacking the URL https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0037595 No discussion of genre.
• http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,318863,00.html Entertainment Weekly

• Archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20130623232602/http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,318863,00.html Reviewer Jim Farber says that Madonna's voice is heard "over a minimal house groove". This would support a house music genre.

• http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_album.php?id=2207 Song mentioned in passing, no genre specified.
• http://top40.about.com/od/top10lists/tp/Top-50-Sexy-Pop-Songs.02.htm Bill Lamb from About.com

• Redirects to https://www.liveabout.com/top-sexy-pop-songs-3248275 The source says the song is "quite powerful and enthralling in its dreamy, beat heavy celebration of carnal coupling." No trip hop.

• http://top40.about.com/od/madonna/tp/madonnatop10.02.htm Bill Lamb again

• Redirects to https://www.liveabout.com/madonnas-38-top-pop-songs-3245460 No genre mentioned.

• http://top40.about.com/od/albums/fr/madonnacelebrationalbum.htm

• Redirects to https://www.liveabout.com/madonna-discography-3245202 No discussion of song.
• Archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20120303155105/http://top40.about.com/od/albums/fr/madonnacelebrationalbum.htm Song is mentioned in passing without genre.

• http://top40.about.com/od/popmusicvideogalleries/tp/Top-10-Madonna-Videos.htm

• Redirects to https://www.liveabout.com/top-madonna-music-videos-3952088 No genre discussion.

• http://www.allmusic.com/album/justify-my-love-mw0000255293

• This source says one remix is a club song (that would be Wikipedia's dance music genre) and another remix is a hip hop song. Nothing about trip hop.

• http://www.rollingstone.com/music/artists/madonna/albumguide

• Archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20120429041047/http://www.rollingstone.com/music/artists/madonna/albumguide This source only mentions the song in passing. No genre.

• http://popcrush.com/sex-songs

• This source says the music is steady and pulsing. No genre mentioned.

• http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/1477/Madonna-The-Immaculate-Collection

• I can't find this thing anywhere on Sputnik or the Wayback Machine. It was probably an unreliable user review, deprecated at WP:ALBUMAVOID.

• http://www.billboard.com/features/madonna-s-40-biggest-billboard-hits-1006539352.story#/features/madonna-s-40-biggest-billboard-hits-1006539352.story?page=4

• Archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20120614051637/http://www.billboard.com:80/features/madonna-s-40-biggest-billboard-hits-1006539352.story?page=4#/features/madonna-s-40-biggest-billboard-hits-1006539352.story?page=4 The source says nothing about genre.

Obviously the references added by CaliforniaDreamsFan do not support the trip hop genre.

Moving to today's world, my search of the internet for signs of the trip hop genre return only poor quality Woozle effect stuff, with the writer cribbing from Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 01:39, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

References

http://www.mtv.com/news/1459150/lenny-kravitz-waffles-about-madonna-song-david-lee-roth-gives-more-than-enough-inxs-on-tour-this-week-in-1990/ Alex ^talk 17:00, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

http://www.mtv.com/news/1479919/jay-zs-the-black-album-the-end-of-an-era/ - The article mentions that Madonna was supposed to record new vocals for Jay-Z's "Justify My Thug" but couldn't make it because of scheduling conflicts. Amzer (talk) 11:47, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Contextual significance of audio listening sample

Question for Aspects: What basis do you have for this restoration of the audio listening example? The problem with the sample (and all others lacking a description) is that it fails WP:NFCCP reason number 8:

• Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.

Basically, the article must discuss something that requires a non-free audio sample for understanding. The audio sample must answer a need to demonstrate more fully something described in words. Can you tell me what part of the article requires the audio sample? If you can do that, can you compose a description for the audio sample that tells the reader what they are listening for?

Good examples of this may be seen at the articles Heavy metal music, Power metal, Prophet-5 and Back in the High Life. The audio listening examples in these articles are accompanied by descriptions of what the reader should be paying attention to. Something like that is required here. In fact, every non-free listening example requires this step. Binksternet (talk) 22:02, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Like cover art in WP:NFCI, "for visual identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary).", it seems to reason that audio files could be used for sound identification in song articles, but would need critical commentary in articles other than the song articles. All of the examples you provided are audio files not in use in song articles. Aspects (talk) 04:11, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

There is a higher bar for non-free music sound files, higher than for non-free cover art which serves in real life as a promotional tool for the actual audio product. The cover art can be viewed for free, but the audio must be purchased. Binksternet (talk) 04:23, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Aspects, I can see that you have been arguing your point since at least 2013: Talk:Some Kind of Bliss#Fair use of sound file. The result of that discussion was deletion of the sound file. If you wish to change the consensus, please start a project-wide RfC to change Wikipedia:Non-free_content#Audio_clips to say that one non-free sound file may be used without contextual commentary in every song article. Binksternet (talk) 04:54, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Split

Would not be a good idea to split single and music video? There exist a lot of literature for both formats, considering this is a 1990 release, and is the first music video ever released in the USA. Censored in at least USA and Canada. Records for a music video format, sales available, music video charts (available through WorldRadioHistory/AmericanRadioHistory), price, listicles, cultural references (Beyoncé channeled the video, for example). Much like "We Found Love (music video)" and "We Found Love". --Apoxyomenus (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Alex ^{reach me!} 00:10, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Justify My Love/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 06:31, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

   b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (reference section):

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   c. (OR):

   d. (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects):

   b. (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

   b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

This will run over the course of two days; you deserve it after three months in the queue! --K. Peake 06:31, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Infobox and lead

• Remove house from genres since that is only a groove, move refs to only being in the body where you still need to write out trip hop in comp and linked to itself, replace commas with bullet points per Template:Infobox song and add experimental pop per the body
• "Kravitz also produced the song" → "Kravitz also handled the production"
• "from The Immaculate Collection on" → "from the album on"
• Why is there no comma before dance like in the body? Also, you need to mention trip hop here too.
• "Madonna and was described as a "spoken-word ode to releasing your" → "Madonna as she releases "your" to be less repetitve
• Finland and Italy positions need to be written out in prose
• "Netherlands, Switzerland and" → "the Netherlands, Switzerland, and" plus the above applies here
• "to be certified multiplatinum" → "to be certified multiplatinum in the US"
• "Ashanti and Jay-Z." → "Ashanti, and Jay-Z."
• Maybe find another sentence you can add to the fourth para since it is a little short?

I tried but I couldn't :/ Alex ^{reach me!} 00:33, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Background and release

• Pipe greatest hits to Greatest hits album
• Are you sure relegated is the appropriate term here?
• "of her career which" → "of her career, which"
• "the project aimed to be released in time" → "the project, aiming to release in time"
• Change "public's interest" to either "the public's interest" or "public interest", as it does not read right currently.
• Remove the United States since the source does not specify any countries whatsoever
• "It was issued on the United Kingdom" → "It was issued in the UK"
• "a aggressive expression on her face and a" → "an aggressive expression, on her face and a"

Development

• Img looks good!
• "her over a studio" → "her over to a studio"
• "that she would receive 12,5%" → "that she would receive 12.5%"
• "signed the paper, and was then" → "signed the paper and was then"
• "Kravitz recalls that" → "Kravitz recalled that"
• "where he played" → "where Kravitz played"
• "Madonna agreed to record the song, and both started working on the track" → "Madonna agreed on recording, and both started working on it"

Composition

• Is the usage of "and" to separate that they recorded in those two studios or recordings were by different personnel in them?

Recorded in those two studios by the same personnel as per the album's liner notes Alex ^{reach me!} 00:33, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

• "it at Sterling Sound Studios," → "the song at Sterling Sound Studios,"
• "The mixing of "Justify My Love" was done in QSound which" → "The mixing was done in QSound, which"
• Audio sample looks good!
• Remove wikilink on beats per minute
• Wikilink vocal range
• Add trip hop here since this is where the other genres are
• "and "moaning" background vocals by Kravitz." → "and Kravitz's "moans" on background vocals." or something similar per the source
• "breathing vocals initially punctuates the" → "breathing vocals initially punctuate the"
• Pipe double-tracked to Double tracking
• I am confused why [24] is invoked on the audio sample but not here when they use the same info?
• "described its composition as" → "described the composition as"
• "and pointed out that Madonna deserved" → "and pointed out that Madonna deserves" plus this sentence is fine staying here once the genre is mentioned in the previous para, as it is giving a more detailed description

"The Beast Within"

• Pipe Eastern music to Music of Asia
• "a powerful tool to bigots."" → "a powerful tool to bigots"." per MOS:QUOTE
• "He also commented that" → "He also commented,"
• "in general" and "the song is, after all, about love"." → "in general": "The song is, after all, about love."" per this being a full sentence
• "The rabbi responded that" → "The rabbi replied that" to be less repetitive
• The ref should be invoked at the end of both of the last two sentences per them using quotes

Critical response

• Mention how many critics made these comparisons on the img text
• "stated that it was a" → "stated that the song was a"
• "Chuck Campbell from The Knoxville News-Sentinel said" → "Chuck Campbell from the Knoxville News-Sentinel said"
• "sound like nursery rhymes."" → "sound like nursery rhymes"." per MOS:QUOTE
• Any sentences using direct quotes should have the refs invoked when it is for the same review

Which review do you refer to here? Alex ^{reach me!} 00:33, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

• "For Tony Power of Blender the song was "preposterously sexy", and" → "For Tony Power of Blender, the song was "preposterously sexy", and he"
• "Madonna had released before."" → "Madonna had released before"."
• "to transform and provoke."" → "to transform and provoke"."

Chart performance

• Img looks good!
• "In the United States, "Justify My Love"" → "In the US, "Justify My Love"" per MOS:US
• "Eight weeks later it reached number one, becoming her" → "Eight weeks later, the song reached number one, becoming Madonna's"
• Pipe Hot Dance Club Songs to Dance Club Songs
• Mention that the certification was in the US
• "debuted on the ARIA Charts at number 14 on" → "debuted at number 14 on the ARIA Charts on"
• "The next weeks it peaked at" → "The next weeks, it peaked at"
• "had a similar run as in Australia, by debuting at" → "had a similar run as to Australia, debuting at"
• Pipe RIANZ Singles Chart to Recorded Music NZ
• "In the United Kingdom, the track" → "In the UK, the track"
• Mention the date of the BPI certification, the amount of shipments and the country
• "in the United Kingdom" → "in the UK"
• "eventually peaking at number ten" → "eventually peaking at number 10" per MOS:NUM
• "and reached number eight." → "later reaching number eight."
• "In Switzerland it experienced" → "In Switzerland, it experienced"
• "Its commercial performance in" → "The song's commercial performance in"

Music video

Development

• Img looks good!
• "The accompanying music video for" → "The music video for"
• "directed the video for" → "directed the video for Madonna's"
• "by Oliver Gajan, and" → "by Oliver Gajan and"
• "then-boyfriend, Tony Ward, models Amanda Cazalet and Wallis Franken Montana, as well as" → "then-boyfriend Tony Ward, fellow models Amanda Cazalet and Wallis Franken Montana, and"
• "for three days," → "for three days and two nights," per the source
• "that by the end of it he was" → "that by the end of it, he was"
• [94] should be invoked after the sentence that uses direct quotes also
• "was a dream, and not a" → "was a dream rather than a"

Synopsis

• Moving img looks good!
• I understand WP:TVPLOT, but shouldn't there at least be one ref here?
• Pipe grainy to Visual snow syndrome
• "as it cuts to Madonna" → "cutting to Madonna"
• "garter belt and stockings." → "garter belt, and stockings."
• "As she stands," → "As Madonna stands,"
• Shouldn't there be a comma before the crossdresser part?

Release and banning

• "they couldn't air it"." → "they couldn't air it."" per MOS:QUOTE on full sentences
• "also said in a statement:" → "also said in a statement,"
• Remove wikilink on Abbey Konowitch
• ""Oh Father" (1989) and" → ""Oh Father" (1989), and"
• [10] should be invoked after any sentences using direct quotes
• "rejected it completely"." → "rejected it completely.""
• "we would air it",[98] sparking" → "we would air it."[98] This sparked" to avoid a run-on
• "to be a problem"." → "to be a problem."" on the quote box
• Wikilink Nightline to itself
• "humiliation and degradation"." → "humiliation and degradation."" if this is a full sentence quoted
• "such as Saturday Night Live" → "such as Saturday Night Live (SNL)" per this appearing later on in the article
• Pipe MuuchMusic to Much (TV channel)
• Pipe Musique Plus to Elle Fictions
• "the latter's program dicrector" → "the latter's program director"
• "called it a" → "called the video a"
• "In the United Kingdom the video" → "In the UK, the video"
• "as it is a" → "due to being a"
• Where is the late at night part sourced?
• "in the United States;" → "in the US;" per MOS:US
• "so lucky me"." → "so lucky me.""
• [98] is redundant for the video single chart performance
• "in the United States," → "in the US,"

Reception and analysis

• Img looks good!
• Pipe feminist to Feminism, also why isn't this done on the first instance instead?
• Any sentences using direct quotes should have refs invoked
• "She also noted that who" → "She also noted those who"
• "Madonna, before YouTube."" → "Madonna, before YouTube"." per MOS:QUOTE
• "popularized by MTV."" → "popularized by MTV"." per above
• "she considered that Madonna was a" → "she considered Madonna as a"
• "the accepted norms". should have punctuation inside the quotation marks if it is a full sentence
• Ditto for "rather than foundationally".
• "serve her interests."" → "serve her interests"."
• Remove wikilink on George Michael
• "similar thematic territory but was" → "similar thematic territory, but was"
• Pipe around the age of twenty to Millennials

Live performances

• Img looks good!
• Pipe period costume to Historical drama
• "New York Daily News' Jim Farber" → "The New York Daily News' Jim Farber"
• "expectations that the performance for the song would be" → "expectations that the performance would be" to be less wordy
• None of "The Beast Within" performance is backed up by the following ref; invoke one here if it is already sourced to a citation

"The Beast Within" is referred to as "Book of Revelations" on The New York Times ref Alex ^{reach me!} 00:33, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

• "released on VHS and Laserdisc" → "released on VHS and LaserDisc" with the wikilink
• "from her exhibition in collaboration with Steven Klein, X-STaTIC Pro=CeSS," → "from her exhibition X-STaTIC Pro=CeSS in collaboration with Steven Klein,"
• "and live album," → "and live album" with the wikilink
• Any sentences using direct quotes need the ref(s) invoked at the end
• Remove wikilink on MDNA World Tour
• "as dancers writhe on" → "as dancers writhed on"
• Remove overly obvious wikilink on Sydney
• Pipe Allphones Arena to Sydney SuperDome

Usage in media, covers and samples

• "guest appearance on Saturday Night Live" → "guest appearance on SNL"
• "It consisted on" → "The spoof consisted of"
• "to which Madonna says" → "to which Madonna says,"
• Wikilink compilation album
• The second tribute album release is not sourced as including the song
• Pipe Maxx to Maxx (group)
• "a part of its remixes" → "a part of the song's remixes"

Credits and personnel

• Change the sub-sections to sub-headings
• Pipe background vocals to Backing vocalist

Track listings and formats

• [167][168][169][170][171] is too many refs together; move them next to the appropriate releases
• Pipe Q-Sound to QSound

Charts

Weekly charts

• Pipe Íslenski Listinn Topp to Music of Iceland
• Add Cash Box in brackets for the top 100

Year-end charts

• Good

Certifications and sales

• Good

See also

• Good

References

• Copyvio score looks slightly too high at 45.2%; cut down direct quoting from Stereogum to resolve this
• Wikilink Entertainment Weekly on ref 2 instead of ref 20
• Fix MOS:CAPS issues with refs 10 56 144
• Pipe Warner Bros. Records to Warner Records on ref 13 and wikilink Madonna here instead of ref 89
• Ref 31 is a duplicate of ref 24
• Wikilink Google Books on ref 32
• Ref 34 is not leading to any source
• Refs 45 and 117 are duplicates of ref 21
• Ref 92 is not leading to any source
• Ditto for ref 96
• Ref 100 is a duplicate of ref 7
• Remove pipe on Warner Bros. Records for ref 118
• Author-link Camille Paglia on ref 120
• Remove wikilinks on Madonna and Warner Music Vision for ref 143
• Fix MOS:QWQ issues and PureMédias → Puremédias on ref 144 with the wikilink
• Wikilink Eagle Records on ref 151
• Pipe Dagblaðið Vísir to DV (newspaper) on ref 187

Book sources

• Pipe Cooper Square Press to Rowman & Littlefield
• Wikilink Billboard books per MOS:LINK2SECT
• Why is the first instance of Omnibus Press not piped to Wise Music Group?
• Pipe Westview Press to Taylor & Francis
• Wikilink Simon & Schuster

Final comments and verdict

•  On hold until all of the issues are fixed; that went smoothly over the expected timeframe! --K. Peake 10:34, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

  Pinging the nominator: 11JORN, since the review has been going on for 11 days, and most of the issues aren't fixed. — VAUGHAN J. (TALK) 22:05, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

• Kyle Peake Thanks for the review, and my apologies for the late response; I'll be starting tomorrow. Alex ^{reach me!} 21:33, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

  Kyle Peake  Done thanks again for the review! Alex ^{reach me!} 00:33, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

  11JORN Thanks for covering my points, however there are some issues that you missed. The spoken-word ode part in the lead needs to be reworded how I suggested, [24] should be invoked in the prose as well as on the sample and my comments about re-invoking refs refer to any sentences using direct quotes. --K. Peake 09:17, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

  Kyle Peake  Done, wasn't the [24] ref (now [22]) already invoked in prose as well on the sample? Alex ^{reach me!} 20:26, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

  ✓ Pass now, no issues are remaining! --K. Peake 06:59, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:53, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that the music video for the song "Justify My Love" was banned from appearing on MTV, Much, and Musique Plus for its sexual imagery? Source: Taraborrelli, J. Randy (2018). Madonna: An Intimate Biography. Simon & Schuster. ISBN 978-0-330-45446-9. Page 210 , https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-12-05-ca-5446-story.html?_amp=true , https://buffalonews.com/news/hit-music-video-with-nudity-is-banned-in-english-canada/article_87837206-5918-5f07-a94f-907b33bf4701.html
  • ALT1: ... that the video single for the song "Justify My Love" was the first video single in the United States and is the best selling video single of all time? Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20210816192913/https://www.rhino.com/article/november-1990-madonna-shocks-the-world-with-justify-my-love
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Nucleon magnetic moment

Improved to Good Article status by Kyle Peake (talk) and 11JORN (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 19:35, 7 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Justify My Love; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:
• Other problems:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Recently promoted GA article. I'm going to suggest we hold this until August 16, Madonna's birthday. --evrik ^(talk) 19:54, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

ALT1 good looks. Apoxyomenus (talk) 04:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

• The image isn't in the article, therefore can't be used. BorgQueen (talk) 12:05, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Removed the image. BorgQueen (talk) 12:07, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
    • @Evrik: I've restored my comments you've deleted. I have no idea why you did, but it's never a good practice. I also note that you've added a new image after my removal of the previous one which since has been deleted on Commons as a copyright violation image. BorgQueen (talk) 05:02, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
      • (See https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Justify_My_Love_portrait.jpg) BorgQueen (talk) 05:41, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
        • My apologies for the deletion. Not sure how that happened. --evrik ^(talk) 14:54, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
          • Again, the image has been removed by another editor. I'm removing it from the nom. BorgQueen (talk) 17:07, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Issue with quote

A quote in this article may have an issue. The quote in question appears at the end of the first paragraph in the 'Development' section, and reads: "maybe she just felt like she didn't another woman to take credit for the creative style of the vocal". Clearly, there should be something more between "didn't" and "another", but as I don't have access to the source, someone who can access it should correct it. 90.128.41.172 (talk) 08:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)