Talk:Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide

Comment

The Brisbane mail centre explosion ... while an anonymous phone call after-the-fact claimed responsibility, investigation proved there was no link to this organisation. eg http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1987/Police-Blame-Carton-Of-Starting-Pistol-Caps-For-Post-Office-Blast/id-5e6af66ecd4d22681466f1a0ebb49d4a 14.200.2.233 (talk) 23:21, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Guerilla organization?

I realize that the definition of the organization was changed from "terrorist" to "guerilla". Do not guerilla organizations operate on their own territory? JCAAG operated all over the world. Is the attribute "guerilla" correct? CeeGee 10:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You are right, it is definitely not guerilla. We can use militant for now. If you have references, we can also say that it is/was in the terrorist organisanitions list of country X (until year Y). deniz 16:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

ARA

I deleted some part of text related to ARA cuz: 1) ARA and JCAG are not the same organizations. 2) the only reference (MITP Ter. Base) is false- there isnt any text in this page about current functioning of ARA organization in Karabakh or in Azerbaijan. --User:Andranikpasha, 1:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

This link takes me to a page to buy an article http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F40711FE3A5D0C728FDDAE0894DB484D81 Does anybody know whats the title of the said article or have the text? If not I'm going to remove it. VartanM 04:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Denizz I actually don't see the need for Comparison to ASALA. What does JCAG has to do with ASALA? besides the fact that they both were Armenia. --VartanM 08:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Denizz terrorist is one of the words in WP:words to avoid. It doesn't matter if your talking about them here or in ASALA article you should avoid that term As I mentioned above. Whats the point of having a a comperasion in this article? and the sources supporting the claims are invalid --VartanM 00:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Designated as terrorist is not WTA, just like claimed by X is not, where as 'claim' is. 01:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Denizz (talk • contribs)

Merge proposal

I have suggested a merge from Dogan Turkman because I feel that Turkman, who was barely injured in the attack, is not notable in his own right. Jlittlet 16:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll support a merge but this article already has that information. The rest is unsourced text about a living person and must be deleted unless it can be sourced with reliable sources.

"February 6, 1980 - Turkish Ambassador to Switzerland Doğan Türkmen was attacked in Bern, Switzerland. Türkmen escaped with minor wounds.'"

--VartanM 17:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Surely, especially as I see the article "Dogan Turkman" is repeated the text here and its importance is dubious! Ill suggest its deletion! Andranikpasha 17:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

A proper AFD is needed if you think that the notability is not satisfied. Deniz^T_C 07:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Refrence #8

The MIPT website source ueses the following sources to support its claims.

"Armenian Terrorist Groups Said to be Planning Actions Against Azerbaijani Diplomats," Zerkalo (translated from Russian), (Baku, Azerbaijan)

"Turkey's Delegate Writes to UN About Continuing 'Armenian Terrorism' Threat," Anatolia, (Ankara, Turkey)

"The Tashnak Terrorist Organization," Republic of Turkey, Ministry of Culture

Patterns of International Terrorism: 1982, U.S. Department of State

"Azerbaijan Profile," CIA World Factbook, Central Intelligence Agency

"Armenian Lobby Collects Donations for Release of Arikan Assassin," Turkish Daily News, (Ankara, Turkey)

Patterns of Global Terrorism: 1987, U.S. Department of State

Patterns of Global Terrorism: 1988, U.S. Department of State

Patterns of Global Terrorism: 1989, U.S. Department of State

How is this a neutral source? I have no problem using the U.S Department of State source but the rest are not neutral. VartanM 06:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed the part about ARA targeting Azerbaijan. The source was referring to "Zerkalo" newspaper speculation. No reliable sources support this idea. There is no indication that the group still operates. Its pure speculation. VartanM 22:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I also tagged the NY Times source as dubious, I find the whole section about comparison to ASALA as Original research. I will gladly reconsider my position, if someone provides me with the text of the said article. VartanM 22:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Comperasion section because it contained OR and unverifiable sources. VartanM 04:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Just remove OR, and statements supported by those 'unverifiable sources' then. Deniz^T_C 11:06, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Denizz, the comparison of JCAG and ASALA is a fully OR, its why it must be deleted. There isnt need to compare JCAG with any other organization here! Why to compare JCAG with ASALA (even I dont know a source which is comparing them)? then why to not continue OR and compare JCAG with ARA, New Armenian Resistance etc., or f.e. with RAF? The original comparison of 2 organizations which never contacted each other is not OK.Andranikpasha 12:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

You can't have an unsourced section comparing the two, that's original synthesis. It isn't up to us, the editors, to draw these comparisons. El_C 12:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[1], [2] (to a lesser extent) Google is a nice thing. By the way, the section was not an unsourced section. Also Andranik, did you pay attention to my message about the images? Thanks if you did. By the way, we can get rid of the section header, if that's the one you guys think that causes the OR. Deniz^T_C 13:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I stand corrected. But those refs are not readable, please see my note. El_C 13:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

We can fix it together. You can help, especially if you don't like one using the same comment about for different links (which should be imo OK here). Deniz^T_C 14:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, "The ARA has reportedly formed cells in order to attack Azerbaijani diplomatic corps in South America and the states of the former Soviet Union"^{[3] [4]} is a copyrights violation. You can't lift whole sentnces without attribution. Please dont do that again. El_C 13:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. There seems to be a quotation mark, possibly remnant of something of that sort. Deniz^T_C

Denizz, again you added the same original research of comparison just by deleting the name! I cant understand why we need a description and comparison with ASALA? the two sources you asked are surely unreliable [5] (so called "Ethnic Terror Information Center"- no any descrition on the site, seems to be a biased personal page) [6] ("This is the look of my original home page, very dated and full of nostalgia for the pioneering days of the web."). Denizz, as I know you're an experienced user, so pls for future aware of using personal pages to prove something. Sorry but this section must be deleted as we cant to compare all the organizations even existed especially if they never have any relations and co-operation (both were Armenian- nothing more, but as I asked earlier, we have more Armenian organizations which we can also to compare as an original research). Andranikpasha 15:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Denizz, also without any explanation you readded the source [7] cited:

• Zerkalo (translated from Russian), (Baku, Azerbaijan)
• "Turkey's Delegate Writes to UN About Continuing 'Armenian Terrorism' Threat," 05/14/2001, Anatolia, (Ankara, Turkey)
• "The Tashnak Terrorist Organization," 01/01/2004, Republic of Turkey, Ministry of Culture

Do you know what means partisan, unreliable sources? And do you remember, that we already discussed in the same talk page and then deleted the readded by you quotation earlier?Andranikpasha 15:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:V Also, of course they are reliable (don't know about Zerkalo), even a 'reliable' site deemed them reliable. If you think like that (partisan stuff), go delete 90% of the content of many Armenia related articles. Read WP:NPOV. Please revert, I don't want to revert again. This is probably my last reminder about your images, please resolve those issues. I will probably not edit (much) for a few days. Deniz^T_C 16:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Denizz, thanks for the links to WIKI rules (I already knew them). Do you mean this quotation from WP:V - "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." This all is against unreliable and OR addings by you which must be deleted!

This is not a simple Armenian or simple Turkish article, its related to the conflict acvtivities, so we must aware of using extremely partisan sources. Imagine if we start to use Zerkalo, Turkish Weekly or a partisan Armenian paper at f.e. Nagorno-Karabakh.Andranikpasha 20:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the (unsourced) "terrorist" term per WP:WTA. Andranikpasha (talk) 16:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC) i ve just reverted back to terrorist organization .Article page has the list of attacks against innocent civilians and government personal . if you have source that shows these people did not die then i will delete the terrorist term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen (talk • contribs) 04:41, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Revert by Gazifikator and the word of "terrorist" by grandmaster

Please explain the removal of all the sourced info. Why for example you are removing information about Melbourne Turkish consulate bombing? It has a dedicated article for years, yet you are removing the line about it. Grandmaster 14:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The word of terrorist os WP:WTA. The adding of Melbourne Turkish consulate bombing is a clear WP:OR: it was claimed by Armenian Revolutionary Army. JCAG wasn't active since 1983, it is a fact, unknown only to people researching or editing with agenda. Gazifikator (talk) 14:22, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The word terrorist could be used, with proper attribution. We need to state that most sources consider this organization to be terrorist, and name the most prominent organizations that consider JCAG a terrorist organization. The article needs a fix for proper attribution. But that does not require such a large revert. As far as I remember, US State Department considered them to be a terrorist group when they were active. ARA is considered by experts to be the same as JCAG, plus the terrorists were Dashnaks, and ASIO considered JCAG involved in this plot: [8] Grandmaster 14:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Off course, if we consider you a source (I dont see any) then every Armenian orgazization is terrorit, while Azerbaijan is a super-tolerant country with Aliev family as the greatest angels. You're editwarring with no sources, with your own interpretations of Wiki rules and are disruptive with your POV-pushing. Gazifikator (talk) 14:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

What sources do you need? That JCAG and ARA are the same group? Here: [9] [10] There are some in the article too. Grandmaster 14:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

What the source actually says is "since 1982 nothing has been heard of JCAG". If you believe JCAG and ARA are the same, ask for a merge, if no, then no need for POV-pushing. Gazifikator (talk) 15:43, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

That is selective quoting. The source actually says: The JCAG's terrorist activities in the United States officially ended in 1983, after which nothing was heard from the group going by that name. However, most analysts agree that a new Armenian terrorist group that began operating at that time, the Armenian Revolutionary Army (ARA), was simply the JCAG with a new name. ARA = JCAG. Now I'm not sure whether we should merge the article about ARA into this one. We can have two articles, or redirect the article about ARA to this one. Grandmaster 18:46, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I've removed fromthearticle about 1/2 dozen examples of pov words like "terrorist" or "militant". Meowy 16:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

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"terrorist"

Hardyplants Please see MOS:TERRORIST: "Value-laden labels – such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist or sexist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion – may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." We can say that the organization was designated as terrorist by certain countries or described as such in certain sources, but it may not be in wikivoice. (t · c) buidhe 00:46, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Since ALL the sources state that they were a terrorist group, calling them so is a NPOV description not doing so is POV. When the all the sources call them something we can state that. Hardyplants (talk) 00:54, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Really, how can I verify the assertion that all reliable sources call this organization "terrorist"? (t · c) buidhe 01:03, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, find some sources that do not call them such, but note all the sources listed do call them terrorists and do not use the word "militant". Also it does not need to be ALL but a preponderance of reliable sources. Hardyplants (talk) 01:27, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Were are the sources used for calling them "militant" what ever that means, The source used are listed below:

Note they all call the group terrorists not militant. Hardyplants (talk) 01:34, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

The guideline says that "terrorist" should be attributed to the sources that use it, because it is not a factual description but a value-laden label. Doesn't matter how many sources call Trump or Putin a bad guy, this stuff does not get into wikivoice. (t · c) buidhe 01:54, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

So would that also be true for calling someone a "Nazi collaborator" since that is a "Value-laden label" in wikivoice? Hardyplants (talk) 02:07, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

The Hyland book you cited here is such an obvious genocide denying book that I was oddly confused why it was added. Calling them terrorists is undue, and there have been many discussions about this already, so there is consensus against the word. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 03:21, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi Hardyplants, I suggest you take the well meant advice of more experienced editors for NPOV a bit more serious.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:22, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Militant is for a quick fix more NPOV than terrorist in the first phrase. Would you agree to armed militant organization? And sorry having wanted to advise you before. I have seen now you are also an editor with some history.01:52, 6 April 2022 (UTC) Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:52, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Dashnak and ARF

@Əfşar Əliyev: I made the discussion for you. There's nothing wrong with using the abbrevation 'ARF' - the name of the article itself is Armenian Revolutionary Federation, not 'Dashnak'. So why keep changing the name? --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:51, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi thank you for the discussion my english is not good so i will use translation software. Dashnak is slang and informal and unprofessional name used by Turkish nationalists in this country - ARF is professional and official name. you are iranian i don't call you persian because it is informal and wrong abi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Əfşar Əliyev (talk • contribs) 01:25, 15 April 2022 (UTC) @HistoryofIran: i copey your message to you

So.. why would we use the slang and informal and unprofessional name used by Turkish nationalists? Also, I already told you, kindly stop bringing my background into this, especially since you don't know anything about me. If you rely on Google Translate to communicate, I don't think this the place for you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

lets then not use dashnak name like suggest. and now you bullying me @HistoryofIran:

Godamn, I can't even read properly. I thought I was the one changing it to ARF. Also, that's not how bullying works. Per WP:COMPETENCE: "Basically, we presume that people who contribute to the English-language Wikipedia have the following competencies: the ability to read and write English well enough to avoid introducing incomprehensible text into articles and to communicate effectively." --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC)