Talk:Jupiter Artland

Meaning of "Edinburgh"

In the Jupiter Artland article, an editor is using a meaning for Edinburgh that appears to be personal and is certainly arbitrary. While the editor may know what is meant, Wikipedia readers will be confused. Thinking that it is outside Edinburgh, they would naturally think that it is in West Lothian. The confusion is shown in the article where Jupiter Artland is said to be outside Edinburgh whereas Haltoun (Hatton) is said to be within Edinburgh. The meaning disagrees with the Wikipedia article on Edinburgh which is headed Edinburgh and states that Edinburgh is a council area. In other words, the Edinburgh article accepts that Edinburgh and the council area, City of Edinburgh, are one and the same. It follows that any location within the City of Edinburgh is correctly described as being in Edinburgh or in the City of Edinburgh but it is illogical to say it is outside Edinburgh. Unlike the arbitrary meaning, the City of Edinburgh is defined and unambiguous. The City of Edinburgh Council takes the same attitude as Wikipedia's Edinburgh article and sites its "Welcome to Edinburgh" sign on the City of Edinburgh council area boundary on the A71 at Hatton. There can be no dispute that Jupiter Artland is within the City of Edinburgh area but it can be disputed that it outside Edinburgh. It is difficult to understand why anyone would want to cause confusion and dispute. Both the Wikipedia article and the official body, the City of Edinburgh Council, effectively accept that Jupiter Artland is within Edinburgh and, consequently, I shall so amend.82.28.236.130 (talk) 10:57, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Is Jupiter Artland in West Lothian? (the boundary is extremely close) - No. Is it in Midlothian? (it formerly was) - No. Is it in Edinburgh? - No. Where is it then? That is the question that needs to be answered, not what it is outside. What is this Edinburgh that we're supposed to understand? Is it the original Royal Burgh? Is it the Royal Mile? Is it the Old Town? Does it include the New Town? Does it include all the areas that have been taken in at various times, for instance, Leith or Portobello or Cramond or, most recently, Curry and Balerno? 82.28.236.130 (talk) 13:18, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Per my edit summary "the meaning of Edinburgh as the city is of considerable longer standing, and greater currency, than the recent "City of..." (big C) council area". Stop warring; you do not have consensus for your edits. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:28, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

"in the Edinburgh City Council area" would be at least accurate, if rather clunky. If I get a rail ticket to Edinburgh, I do not expect to be turfed out at Dalmeny. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:31, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

That is why I asked from your edit summary just what your meaning of the city is. You have simply repeated yourself with no explanation.

I've no idea why you would want the inaccurate and clunky "in the Edinburgh City Council area". The "City of Edinburgh" was set up as a defined area in the 1973 Act independent of the administration.

I wouldn't expect to to be turfed out at Haymarket either. What's the point?

I fail to see how you have consensus. I have been amending to what is the undeniably correct and legally defined "City of Edinburgh" whereas you have been amending to some occult notion of Edinburgh.82.28.236.130 (talk) 13:23, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes it's clunky and I don't want it but at least it's not misleading and was mentioned as a compromise since you want to mention the council area. Plain "Edinburgh", without qualification, is at best ambiguous and, in common(-er) usage it implies it is within the city/town/largest conurbation of that council area, not out in the countryside miles away from it. We should avoid that ambiguity/false impression. Are you going to try to erase the information that says it is "7 kilometres (4.3 mi) west of the city of Edinburgh"? Are we going to leave people in the dark? Are we only allowed to use "Edinburgh" to mean the entire council area and never to refer to the actual city, of that name, within it? Isn't what the bypass bypasses a thing? Are other towns/villages in the council area allowed to be mentioned? Occult? Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:59, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

You don't seem to get the point that "City of Edinburgh" is the defined area not "City of Edinburgh area" or " Edinburgh City Council area". You don't need to be clunky. All you need is "City of Edinburgh". Once again I would point out that "City of Edinburgh" is defined by Act. It is factually correct to state for anywhere within it to be in the City of Edinburgh. It is in no sense misleading.

It is you who brought up the so-called 'plain "Edinburgh"', in fact, even worse, you brought up outside 'plain "Edinburgh"' and, incredibly, you don't see that as misleading, ambiguous and giving false impression. When did Leith, Portobello, Cramond or, particularly, the swathe of farming land from Gorgie to Sighthill become part of your plain Edinburgh? In 1920 or some other time or perhaps 1966? Even within your argument you confuse matters by begging the question with your comment "actual city". What is sometimes referred to as Rural West Edinburgh has been in the City of Edinburgh for 46 years. Get over it. The official name is the City of Edinburgh Bypass and Wikipedia calls it Edinburgh City Bypass. A distance sign I saw on the M8 which shows Bypass - 4 miles, Edinburgh - 10 miles reminded me that road distances to "Edinburgh" are measured, not to the Bypass but, rather, to somewhere in the centre of the city. I would remind you that it was you who has already removed the measurement to the city centre and replaced it with what suited your "outside Edinburgh" notion. So, yes. I would consider changing the distance to the centre of Edinburgh. Who is intending not to name individual places? Jupiter Artland is mentioned.

In my view, saying Jupiter Artland is "outside Edinburgh" is an invitation for someone to think that if it's outside Edinburgh it must be in West Lothian (and for a while the consensus in Wikipedia said it was in West Lothian). This is particularly so as the boundary between West Lothian and the City of Edinburgh (shown on maps as West Lothian/City of Edinburgh) runs through the property, by far most being on the City of Edinburgh side. As I have said before, the City of Edinburgh Council has signs on roads at the City of Edinburgh boundary saying "Welcome to Edinburgh" and not "Welcome to the City of Edinburgh" or anything else so, probably, Edinburgh would be more appropriate. I am encouraged in that view by Historic Environment Scotland's Canmore web article on Bonnington House which, quoting from "West Lothian: An Illustrated Architectural Guide", by Stuart Eydmann, Richard Jaques and Charles McKean, 2008", says "Actually in Edinburgh but with its entrance in West Lothian."82.28.236.130 (talk) 11:38, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

The wording before your edits was "outside Edinburgh", plain and simple in normal, common usage. I do not hold with your recentist, legalistic opinion and it would seem to proscribe the notion that that big thing within the bypass is an entity which has a term to refer to it to distinguish from the part of the council area outside that conurbation. Do you refute the former as a distinct entity or notion? Nobody ever claimed e.g. Burntisland was in Kirkcaldy when Kirkcaldy (district) was a local government entity.

I don't know what you mean by your false statement that I "removed the measurement to the city centre". I also don't know what your point is regarding measurements to a city being to the centre; that is standard. My point was that by noting the distance to a town nearby, it was denoting common usage that it is outside that town. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:47, 25 August 2021 (UTC)