Talk:July massacre

Starting Edit

@Wiki N Islam@Mehedi Abedin@ApurboWiki2024@Lahsim Niasoh@KabirDH Bruno pnm ars (talk) 13:42, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bruno pnm ars Will start from the next day. Mehedi Abedin 13:43, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Just formed the article's structure today. It will be easier now to edit it. Mehedi Abedin 14:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Internationally, July massacre also refers to 1995 Srebrenica massacre. And also, internationally the name "July massacre" isn't being used widely, it's basically a local name. Should we rename it 2024 Bangladesh massacre??

@Mehedi Abedin, @Lahsim Niasoh, @Bruno pnm ars, @ApurboWiki2024 Wiki N Islam (talk) 16:02, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

It would be more perfect, I guess. Lahsim Niasoh (talk) 16:09, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

 Disagree with changing the title. While there isn’t a significant amount of independent reliable sources calling it the "July Massacre", there Isn't that many whom are calling it the "2024 Bangladesh massacre" either. Also a news from The daily star which i later checked through Ground News was showing a neutral percentage, despite having the word "July Massacre" in it source, so in my opinion we should stick to the current title or change it slightly and naming it Bangladesh July Massacre. Bruno pnm ars (talk) 16:17, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Why to add "Bangladesh" if I keep the name July massacre? The name "July massacre" can be appropriate for Bangla Wikipedia, but not for the English, in my opinion. Well UN is inquiring it, I think that we should wait how global media present and address the event. Wiki N Islam (talk) 16:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wiki N Islam Why not just 2024 July massacre? Because no other massacre happened in July 2024. Mehedi Abedin 04:12, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Here's one of the numerous massacre that happened on July 2024, Al-Awda School massacre. I'll once again vouch for the title Bangladesh July Massacre Bruno pnm ars (talk) 10:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bruno pnm ars But does that event known as "2024 July massacre" by reliable sources? Probably not. I have seen some opinion articles stating the topic as Bangladesh July massacre but Wikipedia doesn’t take opinion articles are reliable sources. Even the Daily Star source you added to the draft is actually a tag page which redirects us to an opinion article, I believe you didn’t notice that. And even the reason doesn’t make sense because if we can not take 2024 July massacre because of Al-Awda School massacre, then the same issue we have for Bangladesh July Massacre because even Sohagpur massacre happened in July. But the point is we don't call Al-Awda School massacre by "2024 July massacre" and I believe no reliable source call it by that. However, even after these things, if we really need to disambiguate the article name then why not taking advice from an experienced Wikipedian who can gives us an ultimate solution based on WP:RS and WP:NOR? Mehedi Abedin 10:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, according to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, we can name it as July massacre without disambiguate it. This is possible if we can get consensus based on valid reasons rooted to Wikipedia guidelines. Mehedi Abedin 10:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Sources?

Many sections don't have sources. Mehedi Abedin 07:23, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll add all of them later. Once we finalise the draft. Maybe before aswell, if any section is done and fully edited with the appropriate info. Bruno pnm ars (talk) 09:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Finishing

@Wiki N Islam @Bruno pnm ars I think the draft is almost ready to be moved in the mainspace. If we can write the event section from 16 July to 5 August then it should be ready. After the move, we can develop and rewrite the article if needed. Mehedi Abedin 04:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I support moving. Wiki N Islam (talk) 05:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wiki N Islam But how about the events section? It is not ready yet. Mehedi Abedin 05:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, then take some times. Also the introductory section is quite short. Wiki N Islam (talk) 07:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

 Disagree, The 'Legacy' section is still empty. And we need to add so many citation here and there. I think we should wait one more day, to improve it more. Bruno pnm ars (talk) 06:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I think we can remove the legacy section as the massacre is a recent event. It is hard to find any sources about its legacy now. But they should be available in near future. After the availability we can add the legacy section. Mehedi Abedin 06:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Y OK Bruno pnm ars (talk) 07:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Mehedi Abedin, @Bruno pnm ars, @Salekin.sami36 when this article would be moved?? New new news are comming about the prosecutions and death tolls in the massacre. This article is needed in the main space for reading. Wiki N Islam (talk) 13:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wiki N Islam I suggest to move it to the mainspace now. Mehedi Abedin 13:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm working on the roles of different involved parties right now. I'm suggesting move it tomorrow. Salekin.sami36 (talk) 14:18, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree , but we should wait 24 hour as per @Salekin.sami36. Bruno pnm ars (talk) 16:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bruno pnm ars@Mehedi Abedin@Wiki N Islam It seems it would take me longer to prepare to this section. I've already build the draft for the section and processing it, wont take much time but I'm not satisfied with the current draft and processed version of it won't be that of a good either.

I'm suggesting to move it now. I will add these sections in the mainspace after a satisfactory draft of these are completed. I thought this work would be much easier. Sorry for the trouble. Salekin.sami36 (talk) 07:31, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Moved to mainspace. But I kept the name "July massacre" you can move it to any name based on consensus. Mehedi Abedin 08:46, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Pin the draft here. I guess, we can help on adding content to it. Bruno pnm ars (talk) 11:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikidata item created

Wikidata item was created for July massacre (Q129322778). After moving the draft to mainspace, we don't need to create wikidata item again, just add the page to Q129322778. Mehedi Abedin 10:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Someone created the article first

@Wiki N Islam @Bruno pnm ars Someone created the article under the name Bangladesh July Massacre. What should we do now? Mehedi Abedin 18:32, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

My advise is to copy the contents of this draft to that article and then move the page to "July massacre" name. Mehedi Abedin 18:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree Wiki N Islam (talk) 19:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

In my view, we should consider making that a redirect page, as the current article contains only a small fraction of the information available here. Moreover, the article does not meet the standards of a WP:GA and remains unreviewed, increasing the likelihood that it could qualify for WP:SPEEDY deletion. We've also had prior discussions regarding the title here. Therefore, it would be best to focus on editing this draft and submitting it for review. Bruno pnm ars (talk) 04:23, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Bangladesh July Massacre

Hey guys! I've created the page Bangladesh July Massacre when I found no page for this topic. I didn't know you guys were building this draft, so I started working my on my own draft for the article for a couple of days.

About the article name: I was also hesitating to use this name as there's no established sources have started reporting the case with this name specifically. But this name has already got traction with mass people and various established bangla newspaper using the term July massacre in their opinion pages. And the name doesn't seem to opinioned either. There's also other wiki pages with names like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_Night_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Bangladesh

So I don't think there's much problem with the name. I added "Bangladesh" following the Daily Star tag name cuz it will be better suited for global audience and specifies the article properly.

Article Structure: I analyzed many wiki pages about massacres before creating the page. They don't go out in details about the victims if this is mass murder. I think we should focus on how the massacre was committed, Parties involved with this, methods of the crackdown, roles of different branches of security force etc. We should leave individual cases to List of people killed in 2024 Bangladesh quota reform movement and non-cooperation movement here. Salekin.sami36 (talk) 08:33, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

@Salekin.sami36 The Daily Star source you mentioned is actually a tag page which redirects to an opinion article. So the name "Bangladesh July Massacre" is not actually established by WP:RS. Also if we think about specification then "2024 Bangladesh July massacre" would be better because many massacre in Bangladesh happened in July (for example, Sohagpur massacre in 1971). But the name "2024 Bangladesh July massacre" is not known or published by reliable sources. According to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:RS the page name should be only "July massacre" because there is apparently no other massacre known by "July massacre" by reliable sources. We can ignore the global audience and specification issues because of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (for example, see July Revolution, we didn’t name it French July Revolution). And additionally, the term "July massacre" is now established by reliable news articles, not only opinion article, but also genuine news articles also mention the name.

But I agree about the page structure. The massacre section should have details about the mass killing incidents and we should work on it. Mehedi Abedin 08:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm still vouching for the name Bangladesh July Massacre. Because the word is a big identity for the article. In 2024 Bangladesh quota reform movement we used the word Bangladesh even though it is always known as quota reform movement to the public and newspapers also used that.

Based on Wikipedia:Article titles i think people will search for bangladesh july massacre and similar massacre article has used the name place where the massacre has happened. Like .... Massacre. So Naming it bangladesh july massacre will make it consistent with other articles of same topic.

I think we need to reach consensus or take some advice from admins later when we're done with the draft.

Also, is there any objection if i contribute here? I've studied a lot massacre pages. I think the article need these subsections. If you guys don't have objection I will try to work on these sections.

Massacres/Persecution and crackdown - ways how the crackdown happened like block raid, internet shutdown, judicial cases, intimidation, etc in shorts methods

Roles of Different organization- like police, bgb, satroleague etc

Details of massacre based on region

National and international media coverage

International reactions Salekin.sami36 (talk) 13:29, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

@Salekin.sami36 For 2024 Bangladesh quota reform movement it is different. Many sources call it Quota protests, some call it quota reform movement and even some call it Bangladesh quota reform movement. But it is different for July massacre, almost every sources call it only July massacre. And naming the article by "July massacre" falls under WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, so Wikipedia:Article titles is not against it. "people will search for bangladesh july massacre" and "consistency with other articles of same topic" have nothing to do with Wikipedia guidelines. We can mention alternative names on the article so that people have less difficulty while searching it. There are many ways to make an article more available in search engine. Also, no one ever said in Wikipedia that we have to maintain consistency with other articles of same topic. But if consensus based on Wikipedia guidelines says otherwise then I would not have any problem naming the article by different name.

No objection with your contribution. You are welcome to do that. Mehedi Abedin 13:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

> "people will search for bangladesh july massacre" and "consistency with other articles of same topic" have nothing to do with Wikipedia guidelines.

• Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize.
• Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English.
• Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) as topic-specific naming conventions on article titles, in the box above. (See § Consistency, below.)

I've taken this from Wikipedia:Article titles here.

Naturalness: the global audience who read about this massacre in some forum or headline wouldn't know this by july massacre they will search probably by starting with Bangladesh.

Recognizability: Same as before kinda. By Bangladesh July Massacre some readers who doesn't know much about the massacre. but heard somewhere from the news about it will instantly recognize that. Same cannot be said about just July Massacre.

Consistency: "consistency with other articles of same topic" this.

and for the primary topic part: yes it's a primary topic if we name it july massacre. But should we name it this? that's the question I was asking. And if search the term july massacre in google there's almost no article of the bangladeshi incident unfortunately. The featured wikipedia page for the google search in 2022 Norway attack. And the term july massacre haven't been established in english sources like one in bangla. even the Bangla name isnt that well established yet in many established source.

I dont have prblm with the name July Massacre. But Bangladesh July Massacre is much more accessible for wider audience. Even local audience may not the english term for july gonohotta.

I think it is pointless to talk about the article name now. When we have finished completing the draft then we should discuss about the name. Let's work on the draft first. Salekin.sami36 (talk) 15:48, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Proposal

I think soon the article is going to be much longer. I propose to merge Non-cooperation Movement and March to Dhaka and Resignation of Sheikh Hasina and the formation of Interim government into single section named "Non-cooperation movement and resignation". Mehedi Abedin 16:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wiki N Islam @Bruno pnm ars @Salekin.sami36 Mehedi Abedin 16:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

YOK but in my opinion, it needs to be something like; Non-cooperation movement and Sheikh Hasinas' resignation Bruno pnm ars (talk) 16:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree per Bruno pnm ars Wiki N Islam (talk) 17:07, 20 August 2024 (UTC)