Talk:July 2022 United Kingdom government crisis/Archive 3

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Archive 3

Did he actually resign?

Nowhere in the text of Johnson's speech did he actually say he was resigning, tending his resignation, etc. There has been speculation by some Labour MPs that he didn't actually resign and is going to try and "un-resign" at a later date. For example "Tweet from Chris Bryant".. I know many reputable sources are saying he has resigned, but I'm very confused as to what they are basing this on. MrAureliusR_Talk! 16:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

He's still the Prime Minister & also Conservative Party leader, until October 2022. Frustratingly, many editors & ips think his resignations of both positions are immediate. GoodDay (talk) 17:23, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

He said in his statement that he’d asked the 1922 Committee to start a leadership contest. He cannot stand in this contest, hence he has resigned. All mainstream media are also tonight reporting this as a resignation. Whilst we can’t put any tactic passed him (!!), I think it is entirely reasonable to refer to this as his resignation. BeaujolaisFortune (talk) 18:11, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

He hasn't resigned yet. GoodDay (talk) 18:13, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion concerning what it means to resign. If you resign from a job by handing in your letter of resignation to your boss, that does not mean you are immediately out of work. "When you resign, you are telling your employer you are going to stop working for them." Usually there is a notice period. Johnson gave a speech in which he was clear he "agreed with Sir Graham Brady, the chairman of our backbench MPs, that the process of choosing [a] new leader should begin now." Johnson has resigned AND he is still carrying out duties as PM, e.g., this afternoon - after the speech - he spoke to President Zelenskyy. --Andi Fugard [they/them] (talk) 18:43, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

He hasn't resigned, yet. He only announced his pending resignation. That's why we don't have "July 7, 2022" as his end dates for his service as Prime Minister of the UK & Conservative Party leader, in his BLP's infobox. GoodDay (talk) 19:20, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

He’s announced his pending resignation as PM, but I think he has resigned - past tense - as Tory leader. Bondegezou (talk) 22:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Precisely. And very depressingly. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:53, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

He's still the Conservative party leader. GoodDay (talk) 05:50, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

”The race to replace Boris Johnson has begun, after the prime minister quit as Tory leader following a dramatic few days that saw his authority collapse.” [1] Bondegezou (talk) 06:27, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

@Bondegezou, per WP:HEADLINES, as a sub-headline which is not substantiated in the body of the article, that is not a reliable source for this assertion. -- DeFacto (talk). 06:35, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

There are plenty more citations.

”Boris Johnson resigned as Tory leader but delivered a broadside at the “eccentric” decision by Cabinet colleagues and MPs to force him out.” [2] Or see [3] or [4] Bondegezou (talk) 06:51, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Or [5] or [6] or [7]. Bondegezou (talk) 06:56, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

He's still the party leader. His resignation will take effect, when the party chooses his successor. GoodDay (talk) 06:57, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I’ve provided 7 reliable sources to support the case that he’s resigned. Do you have any reliable sources to support your claim? Bondegezou (talk) 07:03, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Your sources are faulty & if you attempt to put "7 July 2022" as his end date as party leader in the infobox at his BLP & attempt to remove his image at the Conservative Party leaders page & remove his name from the 'leader' section of the infobox in the Conservative Party page? It's highly likely many editors will revert you. GoodDay (talk) 07:05, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources to support your claim that the sources I gave are faulty? Wikipedia is based on what reliable sources say, not the personal opinions of editors. This is Wikipedia 101, one of our most basic principles. Bondegezou (talk) 07:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

You're becoming tiresome. Go forth & attempt to make the edits at Conservative Party (UK), Leader of the Conservative Party (UK) & Boris Johnson, that blend with your argument. Either you'll be reverted on those pages by others, or you won't. GoodDay (talk) 07:20, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Bondegezou is right that the media is widely using language that he's already ceased to be Party leader. (interested to see if anyone is aware of sources saying explicitly he will remain party leader until the election - I can't find any.) The problem (I think) is it is not politically significant or newsworthy whether his resignation as party leader is immediately effective or effective when the new leader is elected (unlike when he ceases to be PM). It's a technicality that no one in the press is interested in. But is that because they are accurately reporting the technical position or is it loose language just reflecting political reality? Having looked around I can't find any source specifically discussing this, including the Party website. (Maybe others can.) Of course our normal course is to follow the RS "right or wrong". But there is WP:CONTEXTMATTERS: are these otherwise reliable news sources reliable specifically on this non-newsworthy technicality? I did think that the Conservatives website would have somewhere who is currently the "official" party leader, but they don't. I did look at the party Constitution in case there are any clues there. In schedule 2, which describes the leadership election process, it does say the "resigning" leader can't be a candidate. They obviously anticipate by that tense that the resignation isn't completed/effective while the election is ongoing. (But WP:PRIMARY etc etc) DeCausa (talk) 07:33, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

So, we have multiple sources saying he's resigned. We have nothing saying he's still in post as leader. It doesn't seem like a difficult choice to pick between those options. We should say he's resigned. We can be vaguer about when the resignation takes effect, but even there I can't see what sourcing editors are pulling on for a date other than 7 July. Bondegezou (talk) 08:01, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Here's a more academic reference: [8]: "If a Conservative leader resigns, this triggers a contest for a new party leader." Bondegezou (talk) 08:04, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The House of Commons Library have produced a briefing,[9] which doesn't really clear things up! It says, "A leadership contest will occur if a sitting leader resigns or if they lose a vote of no confidence of MPs." It later says, "On 7 July 2022, Boris Johnson announced he would resign as Conservative Party leader. He peldged [sic] to remain Prime Minister until a new leader was in place and said the timetable for the leadership election would be announced in due course." Note confusing use of "would". Bondegezou (talk) 09:02, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

This The Conversation piece is explicit on the difference between Tory leader and PM roles: "While it has been widely reported that Boris Johnson has resigned as the United Kingdom’s prime minister, he has instead resigned as leader of the Conservative Party. Johnson has stated he will remain in office as prime minister until a new party leader is chosen." Bondegezou (talk) 09:07, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

As others have noted above, the phrase "has resigned" is ambiguous. For tendering a resignation effective at a future date (i.e. giving notice) and tendering a resignation with immediate effect, it's common to use the phrase "has resigned" for both. On the PM position, it's clear he hasn't formally resigned in either sense. DeCausa (talk) 09:17, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Presumably we have a full transcript of his speech and this is linked in the article? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:22, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

He never actually said he was resigning from anything in his speech! The closest he got was "It is clearly now the will of the parliamentary Conservative Party that there should be a new leader of that party and therefore a new prime minister. I agree with Sir Graham Brady, chairman of our backbench of MPs, that the process of choosing that new leader should begin now..." But in any event it wouldn't be in a speech but a formal letter to the conservative hierarchy presumably. DeCausa (talk) 09:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I fully respect him for his peldging. He's one of the best peldgers of the modern era. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:20, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

OK, DeCausa, there's lots we agree on. Johnson definitely remains PM. We agree that Johnson has resigned as party leader. We should say that in articles. I accept there is some ambiguity over when his resignation as party leader takes effect. How do we handle that ambiguity? I think claims on Wikipedia need to be verifiable, as per WP:V. I don't think we can verify the claim that Johnson today is leader (or acting or interim leader) of the Tory Party. So, I suggest we don't say that anywhere. Does that work? Bondegezou (talk) 09:27, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I honestly don't know what the answer is! Arguably what needs to be verified is the resignation rather than the continuation because that requires a change to the article.DeCausa (talk) 09:41, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I suspect that, for the average punter, nothing has really changed - he's still living in No 10, he's still chairing Cabinet meetings, he'll still be standing up at PMQs i.e. he's still in charge. It's just that he's now got a cabinet of numpties who aren't allowed to use the sharp scissors. What a result! Martinevans123 (talk) 10:39, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Until you can prove beyond any doubt, that there is no leader of the Conservative Party right now 'or' that somebody else has taken over an interim leader of the party? BoJo is still the party's leader. FWIW - I checked the party's official website & BoJo is still there, very much the face of the party. GoodDay (talk) 16:26, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. They ought to know: ""Meet Boris Johnson, the leader of the Conservatives who got Brexit done so we can get on with the country's priorities." Although looking at that website, you'd never know that anything at all had happened. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:40, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Listen to mr. Johnson's exact words of his 'resignation speech at number 10' at https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-62070755 and you will not hear a resignation, not as party leader, not as prime minister:

"It is clearly now the will of the Parliamentary Conservative Party that there should be a new leader and therefore a new prime minister.

And I've agreed with sir Graham Brady, the chairman of our backbench MP's, that the process of choosing that new leader should begin now and the timetable will be announced next week..."

My impression from these words: mr. Johnson remains the leader of the Conservative Party until a new leader has taken over. Same story for being prime minister.

'should begin now' does not signal the process has begun already, just that it should begin. It clearly has not begun yet as the timetable, with the start of the selection process, will come next week. The selection process could very well last till September according to https://www.ft.com/content/87af8858-e427-47f9-b801-be7a50f65d6e Uwappa (talk) 17:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is clear in its epistemological approach. Editors shouldn't be seeking to interpret a primary source text as that's WP:OR. Rather, we look to what reliable, (preferably) secondary sources say. It doesn't matter what words he used in one speech. It matters what reliable sources report. Numerous reliable sources are given above that describe Johnson as having resigned, as several editors agree. If you have reliable sources that support your interpretation, please post them here. The precise interpretation of the process, it seems to me, remains somewhat unclear, so more sourcing would be valuable. Bondegezou (talk) 17:57, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

This is completely correct. I would add the caveat that the mainstream media can get things wrong, particularly the technicalities like what precisely Johnson has resigned from when, but it's still a better determiner of content than editors' own interpretations of primary sources. We have to stick with what they say, at least for now, until better sources come along. — Bilorv (talk) 00:19, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Many would argue that "the process" very much has begun e.g. Ready for Mr Rich. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:05, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: earlier today, you posted a message at 16:40, 8 July 2022 (UTC) which included a quote from the Conservative website saying "Meet Boris Johnson, the leader of the Conservatives who got Brexit done so we can get on with the country's priorities." pipelinked to this web page. When I look at that page now, I don't see that quote. It just is headlined "Meet Boris Johnson" and his signature box at the bottom just says PM. No reference to being party leader. Has that changed since you posted your message? If so, that must be significant. DeCausa (talk) 19:08, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Well spotted. That text was in the Google search result. If you search for the text, it's still there. So you may be right, it might be significant. Perhaps an archived version of the Party website would settle the question. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:13, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Video and transcript of speech at: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-minister-boris-johnsons-statement-in-downing-street-7-july-2022 Uwappa (talk) 20:33, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I have added that as an External link. A heart-rending display of humility and contrition, but it's very clear he did not use the word "resign". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:36, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

This House of Commons library briefing makes clear that during a Conservative leadership election, the position of leader is vacant. This seems to provide the clarity perhaps lacking before. Bondegezou (talk) 14:46, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Until we hear otherwise from the Conservative Party itself. He's still party leader. GoodDay (talk) 16:31, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I refer you to WP:PRIMARY. Wikipedia follows reliable sources, preferably secondary. Bondegezou (talk) 18:06, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

What about the Tory Party website? Can anyone get an archive version to show that they dropped the word "leader"? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:21, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

A resignation is required to trigger a valid leadership election, as explained on Page 6 of The House of Commons library briefing. The document does not provide proof of an actual resignation. Page 10 describes a supposed announcement of resignation with a link to a BBC news article: 'On 7 July 2022 Boris Johnson announced he would resign'. The supposed announcement is not in the linked BBC article at https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-62064789, titled “Boris Johnson facing calls to quit as PM as soon as possible”. Uwappa (talk) 05:09, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Half a dozen citations saying Johnson has resigned are provided above. Plenty more can be produced. Bondegezou (talk) 06:25, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Please have a look at both yes and no sources via https://fullfact.org/news/did-Boris-Johnson-resign/ Uwappa (talk) 07:53, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

See https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-62068930 Is Boris Johnson still PM?

Yes, still PM, official resignation will follow when new leader is elected. Uwappa (talk) 08:18, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is clear that Johnson remains PM. What has been less clear is whether he is currently party leader. That link says, "Despite standing down as leader of the Conservative Party, Mr Johnson is still the prime minister." So, that article seems to be saying he is not currently party leader. Bondegezou (talk) 08:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, unclear if he is still the leader of the CP. Yet I think the article must describe that he is expected to offer his resignation as PM to the queen on Sep 6th. Uwappa (talk) 08:47, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Vote of no confidence

"The Labour Party submitted a motion for a vote of no confidence and then the government rejected it but afterwards decided to debate it after it submitted the motion itself". In essense, this is what the article said in the lead and in the main body. No hint for the motivation of this behaviour was given, such as the contentious point that caused this behaviour from the government, i.e. that the first motion included a reference to the PM. I updated the article accordingly in all places (I believe). Nxavar (talk) 07:15, 5 August 2022 (UTC)