Talk:July 2017 Pennsylvania murders

Date

Should the article be called "2017 Bucks County murders" or "July 2017 Bucks County murders" to be as specific as possible? CB19 (talk) 20:08, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree that the current title -- Bucks County murders -- is not good. This article had been named "Bucks County disappearances" (or something along those lines). And I guess that it was recently changed to this new title. But, yes, the new title needs to be clarified a bit. Unless, of course, there were never any murders in Bucks County in all of history, nor will there be any in the future. An unlikely scenario. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:07, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I changed the title to Bucks County Murders in the spur of the moment and I didn't realize changing it would mess up all of my redirects. Example: Jimi Taro Patrick. You guys can undo my rename if you want. (It's not letting me undo the change.)Atontado (talk) 21:44, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

If I'm understanding this correctly, Bucks County disappearances got redirected to Bucks County "Missing Four" Murders. I was not aware of this when I moved Bucks County disappearances to Bucks County murders. Atontado (talk) 22:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Dates of death

This article has now listed the specific dates of death for the four men. Do we know the actual dates of death, though? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:15, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

https://bucks.crimewatchpa.com/da/29567/post/two-men-charged-homicide-four-solebury-slayings lists the days of the murdersAtontado (talk) 21:47, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:49, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Attack type

Regarding the "attack type" in the Info Box, it says "mass murder". I do not believe that this was a mass murder. I thought that each man was murdered separately and individually, apart from the other three. No? If it were a "mass murder", that would mean that all four were killed together, at the same time. Thoughts? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:48, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

The FBI's definition of mass murder is vague IMO so I'm indifferent over whether it should be classified as a mass murder/murder. ″The FBI defines mass murder as murdering four or more persons during an event with no "cooling-off period" between the murders.″ - Mass murderer So I guess it depends on what y'all define as a "cooling off period." Atontado (talk) 02:57, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I guess it's sort of "tricky", in this case. Still, I think of "mass murder" as a guy walking into a store or a school and killing a bunch of people, all at the same time. In this case, it seems that they conducted a drug transaction with the first guy, then killed him. A few days later, they did the same thing with the second guy. And, then, a few hours later, the same thing with the third and fourth victim. It seems like four murders in three separate "incidents". Not like a "mass killing" of four people. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:06, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

July 15 name change and future name changes

The name was changed from July 2017 Bucks County murders to July 2017 Pennsylvania murders. The user made this change said that most people haven't heard of Bucks County. Thoughts? Atontado (talk) 06:11, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I assume that Pennsylvania had/will have other murders in July 2017. So, "July 2017 Pennsylvania murders" is not a good title. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 06:21, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

This is a world encyclopedia, so we need to use a title that most people will easily understand. With the previous title, the vast majority will have thought 'where's Bucks County'. When these murders are reported outside Pennsylvania, they'll be referred to as murders in PA, rather than BC. There probably have been other murders in PA this month, but these are the only notable ones. No-one would claim that the 2016 Nice attack and the 2016 Berlin attack were the only attacks in those cities last year. Jim Michael (talk) 08:06, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I did not necessarily say that the previous title (July 2017 Bucks County murders) was good. I only asserted that this current title is bad. In your examples, you cite "Nice" and "Berlin". Those are cities. And, major cities, at that.So, it is easy for readers to identify notable attacks that occurred in those cities (as you indicated). However, Pennsylvania is a state. So, it's a very "general" location; not specific at all. So, saying, "murders in Pennsylvania" or even "July 2017 murders in Pennsylvania" is not helpful or useful or practical (in my opinion). The geographical term of "Pennsylvania" is too broad and general. It's like saying "the murders in the USA" or "the murders in North America". Also, sources are calling this "Bucks County murders", not "Pennsylvania murders", regardless of whether or not people know where Bucks County is. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:02, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Pennsylvania is a much more specific location than the US or North America - and it's specific enough. The large majority of people know of PA, but not of any of the counties within it. PA sources are specifying the county, but sources outside the state generally aren't. Think about when people outside PA are searching for this article years in the future - they won't put the name of a county that they've never heard of in the search box. Jim Michael (talk) 17:07, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

This is not a good title to begin with... Simultaneously too vague (Pennsylvania's a big state, with a lot of people) and too specific (July 2017? DiNardo's now saying he committed two murders in Philly in 2015). To my mind, a better title would be Cosmo DiNardo or Solebury, Pennsylvania murders. When the three women were freed from Ariel Castro's house in Cleveland, there was debate on what to call that Wiki page. Consensus led to Ariel Castro kidnappings. Perhaps something like that? Paris1127 (talk) 20:59, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, this article is a bit tricky to name. But -- in the end -- the current name (July 2017 Pennsylvania murders) is not good, in my opinion. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:00, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

2017 Solebury Township, Pennsylvania MurdersArtaxerxes 00:05, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Turns out there's only one Solebury, and it's in Bucks County, PA... Paris1127 (talk) 00:54, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

I think that in order to figure out the best name for the article, we need to look at what news outlets are calling it. New York Times is calling it the Bucks County Killings. Fox News is calling it Pennsylvania murders. Some outlets don't give the killings a name and instead focus it on the perpetrators. Atontado (talk) 02:27, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Photos misidentified?

According to the following weblink: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/pennsylvania/bucks-4-missing-men-mark-sturgis-jimi-patrick-dean-finocchiaro-thomas-meo-20170713.html

I think that the names of the victims are incorrectly listed in the infobox.

Currently, the picture in the upper left corner is identified as Mr. Sturgis, but I think it is Mr. Meo. And the picture in the lower right is Mr. Sturgis. I wanted to mention this before making any changes. Thank you for your attention. --FeanorStar7 11:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Correct. I believe that Sturgis and Meo are incorrectly "switched". Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:03, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks and thanks for fixing it.--FeanorStar7 15:09, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

My bad. I shouldn't edit articles at 2 AM! Thank you to whoever fixed it. Atontado (talk) 16:14, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Better category?

Can Missing people be changed to Category:Formerly missing people found dead? I think it's a little more accurate... Please advise.--FeanorStar7 17:22, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree with this change Atontado (talk) 18:06, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

ok, I will make the change. thanks, --FeanorStar7 18:32, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm also adding a blpo tag on this page. FS7

Contradiction

It is writte: "The four victims were murdered separately ". And then, bellow, it is written "DiNardo met with Sturgis and Meo at a church to sell Meo marijuana. Meo and Sturgis were both shot as they exited their truck." So, there is a contardiction in the text. 217.76.1.22 (talk) 09:03, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that, also. I reworded it just now. As such: The four victims were murdered, in three separate incidents, after DiNardo arranged to sell them marijuana. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 13:00, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Birthdays

Out of curiosity, where were the birthdays of the victims and perpetrators posted? Atontado (talk) 19:26, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

@Atontado: Great question! Go to the "External links" section at the very bottom of the article. There are two official criminal complaints posted there (one against each perpetrator). If you read through the reports, they list everybody's date of birth. The dates of birth are listed in the reports for the perpetrators as well as for the victims. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:57, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Mugshots

Why did Kratz's mugshot get deleted, but not DiNardo's? They both came from the same source and I gave the same rationale for using both of them. Atontado (talk) 20:36, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

It might have been a simple oversight. The nominator bundled both images into the same nomination, but the closer might not have realised there was a second image under discussion. (See here.) In all likelihood, the oversight will be discovered in due course. NewYorkActuary (talk) 21:39, 25 July 2017 (UTC)