Talk:Jones Bar-B-Q Diner

claimed vs perhaps

Hey, MarkH21, I'm not sure an unattributed "claimed" is any less vague than "perhaps." I used perhaps because that's the kind of wording the sources were using. --valereee (talk) 10:37, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

"Perhaps" is literally meaningless, while "claimed" is a more precise statement: certain sources claim that ___ is ___. Anything could "perhaps" be anything. — MarkH21 (talk) 10:41, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

MarkH21, absolutely, and in 99.9% of cases I'd never have used that language, especially in the lead. But in this case it's the literal truth. This businesss is perhaps the oldest x, but we can't know because no one was paying attention to black-owned businesses back then. I do understand your objection to the word; I didn't like having to use that wording. I think in this case it may be justified and necessary. If we use "claimed", someone's just going to come along and add a tag asking --valereee (talk) 10:54, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

@Valereee: But it doesn't add any more information than "claimed", which gives strictly more information. Sure, we can add the sources that claim it. I figured that the four attributed sentences describing the claims in the body of the article were sufficient. — MarkH21 (talk) 10:57, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

MarkH21, let me go reread the sources, can't remember if any of them used that word. --valereee (talk) 11:01, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

@Valereee: I mean they may not use the exact word "claim", but if two sources say X is true, another says that X "may be" true, and another says that "there are some people who believe" X is true, then "X is true" is a claim (that is made, at the very least, by the first two sources). — MarkH21 (talk) 11:03, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Okay, here are the complete sentences:

Encyclopedia of Arkansas: Jones Bar-B-Q Diner, a nationally known eatery in Marianna (Lee County), is perhaps the oldest continuously operating restaurant in Arkansas, as well as perhaps the oldest continuously operating restaurant in the South owned by a black family.

Oxford American: If a firm opening date could be established, a task at which this writer has failed, Jones might prove to be the oldest black-owned restaurant in the South, and, perhaps, one of the oldest family-owned black restaurants in the nation.

Black Business: Jones Bar-B-Q Diner in Marianna, Arkansas is believed to be the oldest Black-owned restaurant in the country. and As the oldest African-American-owned restaurant in America, having been around for several generations, the diner remains true to it's roots.

Southern Foodways Alliance: While it’s hard to determine the exact year it opened, there are some people who believe it’s the oldest continually operated African American-owned restaurant in the South.

So you're thinking we use something like "Southern Foodways Alliance claims that some people believe X to be true"? That seems very awkward, almost to the point of implying "but we don't believe it." --valereee (talk) 11:16, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

@Valereee: No not at all, because the assertions by the Encyclopedia of Arkansas, Oxford American, and Black Business are also claims. We could write that all four claim it, but I think it's fine to just leave it as "it is claimed" in the lead as a summary of what a reader would immediately find in the beginning of the "History" section. — MarkH21 (talk) 11:25, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

But they're only claiming it is perhaps the oldest, which puts us right back with using perhaps in the lead. --valereee (talk) 11:27, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

@Valereee: Black Business certainly claims it outright and Southern Foodways Alliance asserts the existence of claims. The Encyclopedia of Arkansas is implying a very weak claim, while Oxford American doesn’t actual say much at all (that the establishment of a precise date might demonstrate it). These can be collectively be summarized by “it is claimed”. At the very least, both Black Business and Southern Foodways Alliance give the existence of a claim. That’s certainly more precise than a general “perhaps”.
I can say “X is perhaps Y” without any justification or specific source and still be correct, but I can’t say “it is claimed that X is Y” without being able to give you a source making a claim. Here, I can tell you that Black Business made a claim and that Southern Foodways Alliance says some people made a claim. — MarkH21 (talk) 11:35, 8 September 2019 (UTC)