Talk:Johnny Winter

Proposed discography

Please add comments here, rather than at end. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:05, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

This looks good to me. I am presuming that the new discography article would have all (or almost all) of the albums of the current discography, along with all the sections -- "As producer and guitarist", etc. -- and all the links to the Wikipedia articles about the albums, plus all the references for albums that don't have their own articles such as the Live Bootleg Series. It should have a new lead section too. I'd be open to further discussion on the details, and other editors might have their own opinions. In my view you could go ahead and create the actual article, and we could continue the discussion there. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 20:24, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

It would be better to develop a more complete draft, so the bugs can be worked out before it is published. I'll start it at User:Ojorojo/Sandbox/sandbox2. —Ojorojo (talk) 22:54, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Mudwater I don't know if the "Live Bootleg Series" table needs the same format as the other albums, specifically the "Details" column. They were all released by Friday Music on CDs and LPs and there doesn't appear to be additional info that can be included (no record dates, venues, etc.) Perhaps a statement at the beginning of the section can include something like:

Live Bootleg Series

The "Live Bootleg Series" are authorized, official releases produced by Winter for the Friday Music label. The CDs and LPs include the notice: "All master recordings are owned and controlled by Johnny Winter and are compiled from the authorized Johnny Winter archives". The recordings were not state-of-the-art for the time and many similar recordings had previously circulated as actual bootleg albums. The peak chart positions refer to Billboard's "Blues Albums" chart.

List of "Live Bootleg Series" albums with year, title, details, and peak chart position

Year	Title	Details Catalogue no. & number of tracks	Peak chart position US
2007	Live Bootleg Series Vol. 1	FRM 1064 – 12 tracks	15
2008	Live Bootleg Series Vol. 2	FRM 1083 – 6 tracks	7

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:30, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:09, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Looks really good so far! — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Mudwater I'm finishing up on the Compilation albums and found some bad links:

• The Johnny Winter Story (also titled Raised on Rock) (Columbia 1980) (appears to be a European and UK only release – is this important?)
• Anthology (Sony 1996) (appears to be a CBS Special Products release – important?)
• Return of Johnny Guitar (The Best of Johnny Winter 1984–86) (Empire 1996) (another European/UK release – important?)
• Deluxe Edition (Alligator 2001)

—Ojorojo (talk) 22:08, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

References

@Ojorojo:  Fixed — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:08, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

@Mudwater: The refs added for The Johnny Winter Story (1980), Anthology, and Return of Johnny Guitar are from a personal website and may contain copyvio material. If these are important (appear to be UK/Europe only), better sources are needed. I'm adding the Alligator and Friday Music releases. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:59, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

It's okay to cite a reference that contains copyright violations, I believe, as long as the Wikipedia article itself does not contain copyright violations. But, if those refs are from a personal website, they might or might not be suitable. So, yes, I'd say keep going using your best judgement. It's entirely possible that not everything currently listed in the Johnny Winter article should be listed in the new discography article. We can continue to sort that out later. Anyway, thanks for explaining. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 14:23, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's another thing I just thought of: We should make a strong effort to include (among other albums) all the albums listed (or, rather, pictured) in the discography on Winter's official website, here. Those are not all in the current article, but any missing ones should be added, in my opinion. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 14:31, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm. That discography on the official website might includes some bootlegs -- for example Dervish Blues and Barcelona Boogie. What's up with that, I wonder. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 14:44, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Okay, here's another post about what albums should, in my opinion, be included in the new discography article. (1) All the authorized releases, and (2) legal unauthorized releases, and (3) notable bootlegs. To expand on this, in reverse order: (3) No notable bootleg albums leap to mind, but if there are any, they should be included, in their own section. (2) The legal unauthorized releases are the ones Ojorojo was talking about in this talk page post. Let's include them, but relegated to their own separate section. (1) Anything authorized. But for some albums I'm not sure if they were authorized or not. Let's take The Return of Johnny Guitar as an example. Is that an authorized release? I dunno, and I'm not sure how to make that determination. (It's listed on AllMusic and Discogs, but it could be a bootleg anyway.) To summarize, I think it would be best to determine which albums are not bootlegs, and then to make a point of listing all of those, with the best references we can find, plus notable bootlegs if there are any. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 15:18, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

There are several issues here:

• WP:LINKVIO includes: "Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States (Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry [1]). Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors."
• The website "discography" is a collection of album covers without any information. If it includes bootlegs, but doesn't have many of Winter's live and compilation albums, it doesn't appear to be professionally prepared and therefore is unreliable.
• As noted in an earlier discussion, "Rather than trying to decide what's authorized/legitimate/etc., include those that are discussed by RSs as noteworthy." Two "gray" compilations are included: The Johnny Winter Story (GRT, 1969) was the first and reached the album chart and Winter Essentials 1960–1967, which seems to include everything he recorded pre-1968 and has extensive liner notes by Bill Dahl (critic/reviewer for AllMusic, etc.) It should be remembered that all the other compilations of early material merely repackage and re-sequence the same material – they do not include unique tracks, except maybe those that have been doctored or given new names. The 13 singles (26 songs) that make up the bulk of the early compilations are listed. Discogs shows 94 compilations and AllMusic many more. If any of these are discussed by a RS as noteworthy, they should be included. However, the fact that these exist (often for only a short time) does not mean that they all should be included. As Laser brain noted "We are not here to cover every single recording—that's better suited for sites like discogs. We are here to cover what's notable about the subject". This approach is consistent with WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:DISCOGSTYLE. This discography could be a featured list and should aim to meet those requirements.

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:38, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I think those are all good points. Thanks for explaining, or re-explaining as the case may be. To me, the most important thing is that all the authorized releases be included, but it seems like that's going to happen anyway. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 18:24, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I found a couple of possible additions: Rock & Roll People (a discontinued Sony budget release) has a short AllMusic review[1] and Beginnings: 1960–1967 (a re-release of Winter Essentials 1960–1967 by several unheard-of labels) has a longer one.[2] Still can't find RSs for The Johnny Winter Story (Columbia 1980), Anthology (Sony 1996), Return of Johnny Guitar (The Best of Johnny Winter 1984–86) (Alligator?) Do you have any in mind (with reliable sources)? —Ojorojo (talk) 19:30, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I'll ponder this further. "P.S." An internet search suggests that The Return of Johnny Guitar was released on the Music Club label, but licensed by Alligator, which seems to imply that it's a legit compilation. (Here, here, and here, f'rintance, plus, more authoritatively but less informatively, here.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 20:36, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

If we're getting down to record day releases, European music clubs, and cut-outs, it seems that we've exhausted Winter's catalogue. I'll add The Return with the AM track listing as a ref. Maybe at the beginning of "Compilation albums" we could add something like:

After signing to Columbia Records in 1969, Winter's former associates began licensing albums consisting of his previous singles and demos for various labels. These 40 or so songs continue to be re-packaged and re-released by numerous small companies that specialize in gray market and bootleg material. In several interviews, Winter asserts that these were unauthorized and that some have been overdubbed with other musicians. For completeness, two of the more noteworthy compilations of pre-1968 are included.

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:07, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds good. Preferably with a reference or two. P.S. I think the discography article should also list the titles that are in the current discography section in the last few subsections -- As producer and guitarist, As guitarist, Concert videos, and Documentary film. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

I added The Return, a lead and infobox, etc. If it looks OK, I'll publish it and you can add the last sections. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:15, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ojorojo: It looks OK to me. In fact it looks better than OK. I'd say go for it. I'll plan on adding those other sections, though I might not get to it right away. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:13, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Done. The Discography article section now needs to be trimmed. I think only Live Johnny Winter And (his sole gold record) should arguably remain with the studio albums in a general album listing (plus the last four sections until they're added). —Ojorojo (talk) 17:14, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

(1) Thanks for creating the discography article. It looks really good. (2) For the sections that have not yet been added to the discography article -- As producer and guitarist, As guitarist, Concert videos, and Documentary film -- I think it would make sense at this point to move those sections, by just cutting and pasting them as-is, from this article to the discography article. Then I or someone else can expand and reformat them at our leisure, to match the rest of the discography article. (3) So, in the discography section of this article, you're proposing to list all the studio albums plus Live Johnny Winter And, and nothing else? Gee, I dunno. Why would it be preferable to omit, for example, Captured Live! and Together? I'd be inclined to include those, and I'd probably also include Live in NYC '97, Live at the Fillmore East 10/3/70, and maybe The Woodstock Experience too. I'm thinking you have some logical reason for suggesting this, so please explain in more detail. Thanks. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 18:34, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and copied those sections to the discography article, here. The only change I made was to combine "As producer and guitarist" and "As guitarist". — Mudwater ^(Talk) 14:29, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

I decided to "go all the way", and removed the other entries from the discography section of this article, along with the introductory paragraph which I've copied to the other article. I kept the live albums I was talking about a few posts up. I notice that the discography article says that most of those live albums charted, which is another argument for listing them here. But, I'm certainly open to further discussion on any of this. Lemme know what you think. And of course other editors may have their own opinions. Thanks. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 14:47, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

It will look better when tables and proper referencing are added for the last sections. A solution to the "major works" guideline may be to include all of his albums that appeared on the main US chart (13 studio & 2 live) under a "Charting albums" section title. That way, it's based on objective criteria. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:55, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ojorojo: I've updated those sections of the discography article -- "Albums – as producer and/or guitarist" and "Concert videos". So I think we're in pretty good shape now. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 18:38, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

First Winter Album…why not included?

I’ve always been curious as to why the First Winter album is not even mentioned as existing. My dad had the record. A Google search seems to indicate it was not widely printed and never in a format other than record. But can anyone shed light on this mystery? Alexandermoir (talk) 01:21, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

@Alexandermoir: For a discussion of this topic, see Talk:Johnny Winter discography#FLC?. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 02:07, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Wow I should have looked there too. Thorough and interesting! Alexandermoir (talk) 02:25, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Personal life?

Why is there no section on his personal life? 142.181.247.43 (talk) 19:41, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Just started. But not much to say, it seems. 86.187.234.189 (talk) 21:18, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Type of guitar?

Type of guitar played??? 24.121.18.33 (talk) 07:57, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

See Johnny Winter#Guitars and picking style. - DVdm (talk) 08:01, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Austin Texas

See https://www.discogs.com/release/3764949-Johnny-Winter-Austin-Texas

Austin Texas is currently a redir to Austin, Texas which should IMO have a hatnote referring to the album. Quite a lot to do in all, Wikipedia doesn't seem to know of this album at all. Andrewa (talk) 01:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Andrewa: Hello! Yes, it's an interesting point. On that Discogs page, it says that the Austin Texas album (United Artists, 1973) is a reissue of The Progressive Blues Experiment, albeit with a different title and cover. Doing a web search, I can also see other people saying the same thing, and the track listing does appear to support that. With that being said, I think this should be mentioned in the article for The Progressive Blues Experiment, and also somehow mentioned in the Johnny Winter discography. @Ojorojo:, what do you think about all this? Or for that matter, what do other editors think? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Good catch! My brother has a copy of the vinyl LP and I obviously didn't look at the page I cited all that closely, I was just looking for a citeable source that the album existed.

I've added this reissue to the page on the album [3] and a hatnote to Austin, Texas [4].

Comments? Andrewa (talk) 06:21, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I'll ponder mentioning Austin Texas in the discography article. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 03:34, 31 May 2024 (UTC)