Talk:John S. Clarke/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Krisgabwoosh (talk · contribs) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Salutations! Your article has tickled my fancy and I've decided to review it. From a cursory glance, the article seems well-researched but needs a few kinks ironed out. I'm also not too familiar with British grammar standards, so if there's anything I point out as a mistake that's actually not, please let me know. Let's delve a bit deeper, then. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Krisgabwoosh, thanks so much for the review! I have addressed your suggested changes and have left a few questions/comments below. Do let me know if you need anything else from me. Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 15:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

All looks good so far. Most points have been addressed. I've added some new ones and clarified where needed. They've been highlighted in bold to be easier to find. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Krisgabwoosh, thanks again for the further comments :) I think I've addressed everything. Let me know if you have anything else to add. Much appreciated! Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 21:34, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Very good, most things seem to be in working order. I'll make a few copyedits that are simple enough to do myself. Then I'll do a couple spot-checks and, fingers crossed, we're all done. Might take a little while; struggling with internet issues at the moment. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 22:14, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

@Unexpectedlydian: Ok! I went ahead and did some copyedits, fixing some straggling issues and slightly shortening the lead. Additionally, added some templates and a few tags as well as electoral history as I found a source for it. Spot-checks were a bit difficult since I don't own any of these books, but the few citations to news articles from the time back what's state. Overall... congratulations on a successful GA! Krisgabwoosh (talk) 23:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Copyedits

Lead

• Consider alphabetizing the list of professions for a cleaner look. (Optional)
  • I've personally never seen that done? It's a list so I'll keep them lower case.
    • I meant placing them in alphabetical order. (I.e. "art expert, author, lion tamer, newspaper editor...") Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:44, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Oh sorry! I read that as capitalising... I've alphabetised now. Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 22:31, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

• "In his early life". Add a comma after life. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "During the First World War". Add a comma after War. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... he wrote for publications which". Change which to that. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• Consider splitting the first paragraph into two. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... as a delegate to the Second Congress of the Communist International". Add a comma after International. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• The factoid about Lenin can be omitted for the lead. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... held governance positions for Society of Antiquaries". Add the. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "He is a character in a play by historian and feminist Sheila Rowbotham which". This is never mentioned in the text and is thus uncited. The whole last two sentences here could actually be removed as they're not too important to Clarke's biography. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:15, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • It is mentioned in the article in the "Death and legacy" section: John S. Clarke is a character in Sheila Rowbotham's play Friends of Alice Wheeldon, based on the events which led to Wheeldon's death. He is described as "an ex-lion tamer and zoo owner".
    • Ah, I see now. Must've missed it. What I am sure of, though, is that there is no source stating he served on the Glasgow City Council. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:46, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

    Thanks, have changed to "Glasgow Corporation" as per the article body. Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 22:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Early life

• Add a hyperlink for Jarrow. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:56, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "also named John Smith Clarke". This could be better encased by an em dash than by commas. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... and his mother". The word his is unnecessary here.
  • Removed.
• "Sally Ann Chiswell". This name should be encased by commas. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• Consider merging the two sentences about the elder Clarke's profession.
  • Done.
• Consider changing Gypsy to Romani. The current link also redirects to "Names of the Romani people" when the intended destination should be "Romani people". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • The source says Gypsy, and the wikilink is to explain why that term is used (i.e. the first line of the para in that article: The English term gipsy or gypsy is commonly used to indicate Romani people, Tinkers, and Travellers. Is that alright?
• Spilt the paragraph starting at The younger John Smith Clarke ... and shorten to just Clarke. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... performed in the circus aged 10". Add by and remove the d in aged. Add a comma after 10. Remove the by in "by riding horses". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "By age 16, Clarke was working ...". This sentence doesn't really fit with the rest of the information. The previous and next sentences relate to his time at the circus. Furthermore, the phrase "by age 16" implies a particular talent, as in "by age 17, he was a lion tamer". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • The information is presented as chronologically as possible, but I can change it to be organised more thematically if that reads better.
    • Moving this sentence to the end of the paragraph and changing "by age 16" to "during this time, Clarke also worked" I think would read better. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:50, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
      • Thanks, have changed.
• "At age 17 he was ...". Add a comma after 17. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• Consider merging this and the next sentence. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • I haven't merged, but I've hopefully made the sentences more coherent.
    • That reads much better. Krisgabwoosh (talk)
• "... and was attacked multiple times". This, coupled with the previous part of the sentence, implies he only claimed to be attacked. Consider rewording if that's not the case. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• Everything after "Whilst in Newcastle upon Tyne" fits better as part of the next paragraph. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... and in 1906 became". The phrase in 1906 should be encased by commas. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Have moved to the end of the sentence instead.
    • That works. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• "... publishing industry and he". Add a comma after and.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • I don't think that's necessary in this context?
    • The nature of the opening part of the sentence denotes a lead-in and thus a pause. As in "opened up opportunities in the publishing industry (pause) and" rather than "in the publishing industryandhe". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

    Thanks, comma added. Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 22:33, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

• "... feminist Jane Clapperton who". Add a comma after who.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "I ever ever met". Is the repeated ever part of the quote? If not, remove it. If so, add Template:Sic.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Thanks, have removed.
• "By 1911 he had married ...". Change by to in, add a comma, and remove had.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • I am working from the source here - the source doesn't specify whether he was married in 1911, only that Clarke's son was born in 1911 and that Balkind was his wife at the time.
    • If that's the case, leave as is. The infobox does say "married in 1911", though, so you'll have to amend that. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

    I've changed to "married by 1911" now. Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 22:33, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

• "... is known of". The preposition of doesn't fit here. Consider replaced with to exist. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Re-reading this, I don't think it's a hugely important piece of info so have removed and merged with the next sentence.
    • That's fine. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• "John Hume Chiswell Clark". This could be better encased by commas rather than em dashes.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.

Political career

• "Clarke became a socialist". That's rather abrupt. Consider adding in some backing context; even "by the early 1910s" would work.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "the SLP". The word the is unnecessary here.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... 1913 to 1914, and again". Remove the comma after 1914.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... to journals including". Add a comma after journals.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "in particular". This should be encased by commas.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • I don't think that's necessary here.
    • The phrase in particular is an aside from the rest of the sentence. The names of his mother and son are enclosed in commas for the same reason.' Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:58, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
      • Fixed.
• "... which aimed". Replace which with that.Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... wrote in The Socialist". Add a comma after Socialist. Krisgabwoosh (talk)
  • Have added a colon instead.
    • Works just as well. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:59, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• "dismissed The Socialist, but". Remove the comma after Socialist. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "During the war he was ...". Add a comma after war. As this is a new paragraph, restate the surname instead of using he. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... owned by Ben Turner". You can omit the name here. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "northern England, and". Remove the comma after England. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... by a spy who called himself Alex Gordon". Remove this part and combine the two sentences. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... Clarke to be one". Replace to be with as. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... others including Sy". Add a comma after including. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • I don't think the comma is needed here.
    • This part is a lead-in and denotes a pause. As in, "He met others (pause) including ..." rather than "He mother othersincluding". You actually do this correctly later in the text, with: "... not yet dead, including Ramsay MacDonald." Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
      • To avoid too many commas, I've changed the sentence to He attended the Congress along with Sylvia Pankhurst, Marjory Newbold and Willie Gallacher...
        • That's fine. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 22:06, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
• "... Newbold, and Willie Gallacher". You use an oxford comma here. That's not grammatically incorrect, but other parts of the article do not. Articles should use either one or the other but never both. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • I've removed the comma.
• "... unknown illness". Replace unknown with unspecified. Presumably somebody at some point—probably Clarke—knew what the illness was. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... escaped arrest sailing". Add either a comma or the word by after arrest. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... for political opponents who were not yet dead". What is meant here? Is it because they're dead now? Doesn't make any sense. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Epitaphs are written for dead people, so it is notable that he wrote epitaphs for people who were not yet dead (as a joke).
    • Ah, that's on me, then, for not being familiar with epitaphs. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:03, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Art and animal expert

• "... then in 1930 was". Add a comma after 1930. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Have reordered the sentence instead.
• "From 1930 to 1933 he ...". Add a comma after 1933. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... from the role, and". Remove the comma after role. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... and torture multiple instruments". Is this meant to say "multiple torture instruments"? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Yep thanks, have fixed.
• "... compiled a Scottish Encyclopaedia". Is Encyclopaedia misspelled or just the British spelling? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • It's a British spelling, but either is correct.
    • Should it then use the character æ, as in Encyclopædia Britannica? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
      • Not necessarily, Encyclopaedia is fine (see here for an example).
        • Fair enough. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 22:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
• "... practising lion-taming". The dash is unnecessary here. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... that human training methods". I assume you mean humane. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Yep, thanks. Have changed.

Political views

• Remove the link for socialist as it has already been linked above. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... Marxist although his". Add a comma after Marxist. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "The historian Raymond Challinor...". The word the is unnecessary here. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "The socialist and feminist historian Sheila Rowbotham...". The word the is unnecessary here. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• "... 1917 which rejected Imperialist". Replace which with that. Do the same when it appears in the next sentence. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.

Infobox

• Regarding the caption, consider reading WP:CAPTIONOBVIOUS. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Thanks, have changed to "John S. Clarke, circa 1918".
    • Consider using Template:Circa. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
      • Thanks, done.
• Since he served in Parliament, consider using Template:Infobox officeholder and adding information about his term. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
    • The exact dates for when he served appear to be "30 May 1929 – 7 October 1931" based on other articles. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
      • Thank you, I've added those.
• Remove the monarch and prime minister parameters. He's in parliament, not in cabinet. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Thanks, have removed.
• Nationality is unnecessary here. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)'
  • Removed.
• "Known for" should be changed to "occupation".
  • Done.
    • Consider using Template:Hlist. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
      • Done.
• The book under "Notable work" should be italicized. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 09:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done.
• Remove the word party in "Independent Labour Party". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • "Independent Labour Party" is the full name of the party (it is often abbreviated to ILP). It is not the same as saying, for example "Conservative Party", where "Party" is not part of the name. Hope that makes sense.
    • Sorry, just realised that "Conservative Party" is actually the name of the party, technically - my apologies. I think though as Independent Labour Party is often abbreviated to ILP, it should retain its full name in the infobox. Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 21:33, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
      • Because "Political party" is already written, the word "party" is redundant. This is why the article on Boris Johnson just says "Conservative", Keir Starmer says only "Labour", Joe Biden "Democratic", etc. You don't have to remove "party" everywhere, just in the infobox. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 22:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
• Remove both links to "United Kingdom", per MOS:OVERLINK. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Done. Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 21:33, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.