Talk:John Neal bibliography

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by MeegsC (talk) 13:47, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the John Neal bibliography includes the first use of son-of-a-bitch in American fiction? Sources: Pages 46–47 of this book reads, "[John Neal] used the language of the day, including the phrase 'son of a bitch' well ahead of other writers." And page 46 of this book reads "Soon the language [of Seventy-Six by John Neal] will reveal itself in another way as the language of soldiers; profanity and oaths occur with an outspokenness appropriate to the occasion, but nonetheless surprising for the century. ... 'It was there ... I wheeled, made a dead set, at the son-of-a-bitch in my rear ....' Not until a century later was the same freedom allowed a writer; even the Twain of Roughing It reports a profane miner's oath as a 'son of a skunk.'"

• ALT1 ... that American fiction's first son-of-a-bitch is in the John Neal bibliography?
• ALT2 ... that the first son-of-a-bitch in American fiction is in the John Neal bibliography?
• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Mr. Dick

Created by Dugan Murphy (talk). Self-nominated at 21:58, 25 March 2021 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith
• Interesting:
• Other problems: - Good hook, could be more specific in mentioning the first occurrence is in Seventy-Six. Unsure if expletive has any bearing on DYK nomination.

QPQ: Done.

Overall: I am new to this review process and have requested that another editor check over this review. The nominated article looks good and the hook is interesting. Darfst (talk) 16:05, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

@Darfst: Thanks for reviewing! I'm fairly new at DYK reviews myself. One thing I've learned recently is that good hooks tend to leave a little mystery, as an incentive to read the article. With that in mind, I think I prefer ALT1 and feel comfortable with leaving out Seventy-Six from the hook. But I'd also be curious to hear a second opinion if you'd like input from another editor. As far as the expletive is concerned, my understanding is that DYK hooks are WP:NOTCENSORED like the rest of Wikipedia. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:47, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

The term "bibliography", although part of the title of the article under review for DYK, seems awkward here. The bibliography, it seems to me, is the list of Neal's works, whereas the first use of the phrase is in one of the works themselves. Could we pipe the article title and say instead: "... that the writings of John Neal include the first use of the phrase "son-of-a-bitch" in American fiction?" --Metropolitan90 (talk) 19:04, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

@Metropolitan90: That's a great suggestion. How about ALT1a (below) for a hook?

• ALT1a ... that American fiction's first son-of-a-bitch is in the writings of John Neal?

@Metropolitan90 and Darfst: Any thoughts on the ALT1a hook? Any reason this nomination can't move forward? Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:24, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

• @Dugan Murphy: ALT1a works for me! Darfst (talk) 11:44, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

@Darfst: Great! I'm still fairly new at this like you are, but I believe you need to edit your review status above from "again" to "y" before an admin will close this review. You might also strikeout your comment about the hook so it's obvious to an admin looking at this that the issues you raised have been resolved. I just struckout the extraneous hooks to make ALT1a more obvious. Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:30, 29 April 2021 (UTC)