Talk:John Forbes (Alford minister)

Requested move 29 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved. See general agreement below to alter the qualifiers of these articles as proposed. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  13:34, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

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• John Forbes (died 1634) → John Forbes (minister, born c. 1568)
• John Forbes (1593–1648) → John Forbes (theologian, born 1593)

– Both were Scottish ministers and theologians. The elder of the two appears to have been better known as a minister than as a theologian, but it would seem to be imcomplete disambiguation if one John Forbes were to be described simply as a minister and the other simply as a theologian. Alternatively, both could have the same qualifier — either "(minister)" or "(theologian)"     Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:05, 29 July 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. The Duke of Nonsense^{What is necessary for thee?} 12:31, 5 August 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 22:23, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support death years alone fail WP:CRITERIA In ictu oculi (talk) 07:45, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
• Works for me. This is one of those rare cases where we need a date in there. We generally treat dates as insufficient by themselves, since it's more likely that a reader is looking for that information than already in possession of it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:47, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
• Move back to John Forbes (preacher) and John Forbes (theologian), respectively, per WP:CONCISE. That would revert an undiscussed move from 2015. If we're moving them to two different qualifiers anyway, adding birthdates to the title doesn't provide added benefit, especially since they're so close together. Because both men were ministers with overlapping life dates, both articles need to be disambiguated by {{distinguish}} hatnotes anyway, no matter what we do. (And if anyone prefers "minister" to "preacher" for the former, no objection.) Station1 (talk) 19:26, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. Both were preachers, ministers and theologians. Along with the 2015 moves of John Forbes (preacher) → John Forbes (died 1634) and John Forbes (theologian) → John Forbes (1593–1648), the incomplete disambiguation John Forbes (theologian) was restructured as a redirect to the John Forbes dab page. Perhaps the most direct resolution would be to describe both as theologians and to use as main headers the analogous forms John Forbes (theologian, born c. 1568) and John Forbes (theologian, born 1593), thus providing some additional clarification.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:38, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

  It looks to me like the former was known more as a preacher/minister/exile than as a theologian. In fact, I don't notice him called a theologian in his article or any of the sources. The latter, on the other hand, was a Professor of Theology and "Aberdeen doctor", and seems to be more significant as a theologian than as a preacher. Station1 (talk) 07:59, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

I commented on that point in the nomination. Although John Forbes (1593–1648) was renowned as a theologian, the content under John Forbes (died 1634)#Works indicates that he was also a theologian, although one with a much lower historical standing. Thus, it would seem that moving John Forbes (1593–1648) back to its earlier form, John Forbes (theologian), which currently redirects to the John Forbes dab page, would still represent incomplete disambiguation with regard to the other minister/theologian and that the clearest forms would incorporate years of birth — either John Forbes (minister, born c. 1568) and John Forbes (minister, born 1593) or John Forbes (theologian, born c. 1568) and John Forbes (theologian, born 1593).    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 13:18, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Seems entirely reasonable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:02, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose although other disambiguators are possible. Dates are generally a last resort for disambigation, but if somebody's year of death is definitely known but their year of birth is only approximately known, let's use the year of death. PatGallacher (talk) 00:28, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.