Talk:John C. Herbst

1946 or 1947?

Some sources say Herbst died on July 4, 1946 and some say 1947. The periodical The Billboard says 1946, and it is bound annually into book form. It is highly unlikely that The Billboard would get the year wrong!

However, Walter J. Boyne identifies the year as 1947 in this book about Robin Olds. There's also the book Fast Movers by John D. Sherwood which places the air crash in 1947. 24.10.123.148 (talk) 01:40, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I have his death certificate and it says July, 4 1946. (William Rambo, grandson) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.193.19.175 (talk • contribs)

Thank you for the confirmation. Your grandfather was a great pilot, flew wholeheartedly, holding nothing back. Binksternet (talk) 14:08, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:John C. "Pappy" Herbst/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ian Rose (talk · contribs) 12:19, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Toolbox checks

• No dab links reported.
• Airport Journals link reported as timing out but is fine when I access directly from the article.

Referencing

• Although I'm satisfied with the reliability of the refs at GA-level:
  • FWIW, I'm not sure if the 74th Fighter Squadron Association would pass muster at A/FA.
  • Also tell me more about Airport Journals -- is this a professional paper/site like Flight International?
• You provide retrieval dates for some of the online sources but not all -- should be consistent for all.

Structure -- basically looks fine although not sure Death needs its own mini-section (suggestion only).

Supporting materials

• Infobox basically looks fine; FYI, in Commonwealth military bios we eschew the rank image but if you're used to it in US bios I won't make a fuss about it... ;-)
• Sole image FUR looks okay.
• You might be able to add a PD image or two in the WWII and/or Postwar sections of relevant aircraft or battle scenes to break up the text (suggestion only).

Prose/content

• In 1941, Herbst was working as a tax consultant for an American oil company when he left civilian life and joined the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) -- are you able clarify for the purposes of the article that he was working in the US and joined the RCAF because the US was neutral (as opposed to having some Canadian connection or working there or something else)?
• Some said Herbst scored against a Messerschmitt Bf 109 in the Mediterranean Theater of Operations -- "some said" on its own always sounds a bit weasly; can we say "some sources credit Herbst with the destruction of a Messerschmitt Bf 109..." or "Herbst was credited with possibly destroying a Messerschmitt Bf 109..." or whatever is appropriate?
• Probably best to spell out "CBI Theater" as "China Burma India (CBI) Theater" on first use.
• transitioned to P-40N-20 Warhawks -- "converted" seems a more appropriate term for changing aircraft type (incidentally, bit of comedown from a P-51, even an early model!)
• On August 6 near Hengyang flying against Nakajima Ki-43s, he scored his fourth USAAF aerial victory to become an ace, including the one RCAF victory -- hmm, except that the RCAF kill wasn't confirmed by the sound of it; what does Stanaway, as the other Osprey author, say about when he became an ace?

Summary -- looks very good, if you can just acknowledge/action the above poits I'll have no problem passing shortly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:22, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I will get crackin' on the article very soon, when I get to where the WiFi is better.

• Regarding the Mustang-to-Warhawk conversion, Herbst never said anything negative about the Warhawk, as far as I know. He appears never to have expressed wistfulness for the Mustang. I don't know if he was a) keeping up appearances for the lads in the wing, or b) actually happy in a Warhawk.

• Ah! Here's a revealing quote about close coordination with infantry, ground attack flying: "For ground support action of this type, the P-40 was hard to beat, but I'll take the P-51 every time to fight a Zero, dive [bomb] and skip bomb." This from the Kissick PDF. Binksternet (talk) 05:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

• Well done -- actually that's just the sort of relative characteristics I'd expect him to remark on for those two planes, so he doesn't disappoint...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• Regarding Airport Journals, it appears to be a paper+online magazine tailored for regional airport lounges. The magazine seems to be a group of eleven publications under an umbrella organization that is funded by Forbes and Porsche. I just figured that it was a reliable source because they presented such a fine-looking and well-written article. :)

Binksternet (talk) 23:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• Regarding the Luther Kissick 74th history PDF: Kissick was the group's intelligence officer during Herbst's leadership, and he also wrote a book about the 74th. In this regard he is considered an expert on the topic; he was there in a pivotal position. As much as any man can, he knew what Herbst was doing and thinking. I would go to bat for the Kissick ref at FAC if folks were questioning it. Binksternet (talk) 05:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Fair enough re. Airport Journals, certainly at GA-level. With unit association sites, it's not so much the qualifications of the authors that might be questioned, more that the sites themselves are not 'professional'. However, as I say, I don't think it's an issue at GA, I've used them myself once or twice at this level of assessment... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
• I am still working on accessdates and possible additional images.
• Regarding Herbst's jump north to Canada to join the RCAF in 1941, I have found nothing to explain it directly. I have not seen any previous Canadian connection. There is only the implication that Herbst wanted to fly and fight but the US was not yet fighting. The sources are not forthcoming. Binksternet (talk) 18:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I have added a few PD photos and I put access dates on the cites which needed them. I also added the above quote about P-51 vs P-40. I was unable to do anything about explaining why Herbst went to Canada in 1941; I blame it on silence from the sources. I think I have done what could be done about the GA suggestions. Binksternet (talk) 21:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

• No prob re. Canada, and everything else seems fine -- I think those aircraft shots really improve the look of things, good choices. Just made couple of minor mods so am happy to pass as GA -- nice work. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• Fantastic. Thank you for your diligence! Binksternet (talk) 15:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

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