Talk:John Ball (priest)

Britannica 1911

I have tried to improve on the horrible language of Britannica 1911. I am satisfied with the present version. The article still needs plenty of sources, and it may aid the reader if, in places, the article were to actually make sense. Adieu, my invisible friends! Brainmuncher 01:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Anon. addition

removed for being unsourced

John Ball lived during the turbulent 14th century in England. As a slave he became famous for his speeches. A poor man and an itinerant, he was made a peasant priest by John Wyclif although Ball opposed some of the church’s tenets. As these dissensions existed between factions within the church and between the nobility and the peasantry, the governmental control was being tossed about in the royal courts and claims to land was causing destructive wars. Wars between countries led to wars between social classes and death became characteristic of these years. An added mortal destructive force came from the presence of the Black Death which hit England first in 1348-49, and returned in 1362 and 1369. Although John Ball’s birthdate is questionable, his death came as a result of his participation in the Peasant’s Revolt in 1381-82.

Edward III became king of England at the age of fifteen in 1327 at the disposition of his father Edward II; in 1328 Edward III was married and had his first son, Edward the Black Prince, in 1330. Until this time, the government was primarily in the hands of his mother Isabella and Roger de Mortimer; however, in 1330 Edward took control of the government forcing his mother to retire and killing Mortimer. Attempting to solidify the English areas only led to trouble and in 1337 a series of wars (called the Hundred Years Wars from 1337-1453) began, which existed throughout Edwards’ reign and after.

The Black Death hit England in 1348-49 and killed nearly a third of the population. Labor became scarce and wages rose sharply. In 1351, Parliament passed a statute controlling wages which caused unrest in the peasantry. Another plague struck in 1362 and again in 1369. Added frustration came when landlords began "asserting their ancient manorial rights." In 1375 a truce was signed with France, but unrest still prevailed. Poor health and eventual death of his son and the strength of his brother John of Gaunt led to Edward’s death in 1376.

John Ball was excommunicated in 1376 for his advocacy of "ecclesiastical poverty and social equality" for priests in direct opposition to the church’s ideas and he was imprisoned at Maidstone by John of Gaunt. The next year Edward III died and Richard became king in 1377 at the age of 10, but John of Gaunt was in control and there was much parlaying for power among the lords in court. Finally the rebellion of the peasants occurred in 1380 when the poll tax was increased. The Peasant’s Revolt of 1381 began at Essex and quickly spread to Kent, where Wat Tyler was chosen leader. As they captured Canterbury and went on to London, their numbers increased as they freed many from prisons, including John Ball, who, being a priest, was an important addition to their cause. His enthusiasm in their cause and his persuasive nature encouraged the peasants into London. Tyler tried unsuccessfully to talk with the king (who was being controlled by others, chiefly John of Gaunt), which resulted into a mob of peasants storming many royal houses and burning Savoy Palace, the residence of John of Gaunt. On June 14, 1381, Richard II met with the rebels at Miles End and agreed to "abolish serfdom, feudal service, market monopolies, and restrictions on buying and selling."

But this was short-lived because some of the rebels, led by Tyler, continued their plundering, captured the Tower of London, killing the archbishop of Canterbury and other officials. Tyler presented more demands but this time was challenged to a duel by the mayor of London; Tyler was mortally wounded and the peasants were quickly dispersed. Angry over the continued destruction and killing after their initial agreement, Richard revoked the earlier grants. John Ball was taken to St. Albans, "where he was hanged, drawn, and quartered."

The Dream of John Ball was written by William Morris in 1888; the poem contrasts the ugliness of the machine world with the poetry and beauty of the Middle Ages, even though the particular period in which Ball lived had little beauty.

--—Preceding unsigned comment added by Srnec (talk • contribs) 17:33, 4 July 2009

There are plenty of questions as to the extent to which Gaunt was actually responsible for the conditions that led to the revolts (he had the good fortune not to be in London at the time). As the wealthiest man in the country - he epitomised the "overmighty subject" of feudal England - and the king's uncle (and himself a prince of the blood) he was naturally a leading member of the council during Richard II's minority (because council members would vie for power, a king's minority was often an uncertain and unstable time). He certainly was an easy scapegoat for a lot of the problems during Richard's minority, but his actual responsibility is questionable. Note that he never tried to pull a Richard III by usurping his nephew's crown, even though Richard II was a terrible king and John probably could have gotten away with it. I particularly take issue with the assertions that 1) he had any influence on Richard's actions during the Peasants' Revolt crisis (as noted, John was not in London at the time), and 2) "Poor health and eventual death of his son and the strength of his brother John of Gaunt led to Edward’s death in 1376." I don't see what Edward III's grief about the death of the Black Prince (his eldest son & the father of Richard II) - likely a contributing factor to the king's declining health - had to do with "the strength of his [the Black Prince's] brother John of Gaunt." d174.111.242.35 (talk) 20:05, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

requested additions

It would be nice if this article answered the following:

1) What was Ball actually convicted of? (treason? heresy? something besides or in addition to these?)

2) Why was he granted a trial, unlike most of the participants in the 1381 uprising? Was it a regular civil trial, or an ecclesiastical trial?

TIA. 174.111.242.35 (talk) 19:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Translation?

The quote is so old that I am unable to discern what Ball meant. What modern word is the word "span?" The closest I can come is "spin" as in making thread. Is this correct? Nick Beeson (talk) 15:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this is correct. Adam delved (as in dug the fields working as a farmer), and Eve span (making clothes for both of them). The English verb "to spin" has an irregular past tense. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:55, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

---

By the way, the explanation ("[a]") now in the article is problematic -- you spin raw material into yarn, not fabric (fabric is woven, not spun). Before the late 18th century, many women (and sometimes girls) spent a lot of time spinning... AnonMoos (talk) 07:43, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

---

I have a different take on the quote that makes sense to me. First I want to say that until I came up with my version of translation the quote never made sense. If you use the idea of entering something such as digging a hole, or diveing in, for "delved", and the word span as a maximum streach, I believe it is talking about the act of sex. According to Merium Webster the strech is what "span" ment in Middle English. The reason I believe this quote would have this meaning is because of the equality message that John Ball, and Wycliff both were preaching. It's like saying "he puts his pants on the same as me". Whether you are a "gentleman" or a "villian" everyone procreates the same way. 06:10 21 October 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.157.160.12 (talk)

First off, it's Merriam-Webster, and secondly "span" as a verb is transitive. Sorry to be blunt, but it really doesn't matter what your interpretation is, but rather what interpretation would have been most natural to people in the 14th century. The stereotypical opposition between men ploughing in the fields and women spinning yarn/thread in their homes was extremely prominent at that time. Furthermore, taking peasants as the norm or original state of society had political implications at that time... AnonMoos (talk) 11:11, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Attributed to John Ball

In a text this morning the following verse was attributed to John Ball:

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

But leaves the greater villain loose

Who steals the common from the goose.

The law demands that we atone

When we take things we do not own

But leaves the lords and ladies fine

Who take things that are yours and mine.

The poor and wretched don’t escape

If they conspire the law to break;

This must be so but they endure

Those who conspire to make the law.

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

And geese will still a common lack

Until they go and steal it back.

... I am wondering if there is any source reference confirming this? I have seen it attributed to Anonymous, and to Unknown Author, but I am not familiar with the work of any of these three. Raquel Fitleigh (talk) 19:44, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

You might receive a more useful response by asking this at WP:Reference desk/Humanities. Please put more effort into its formatting when doing so - verse should be formatted as verse! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:00, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Raquel -- that's somewhat anachronistic to the 14th century (enclosure didn't start to become a significant issue of dispossession until the 16th century), and almost certainly not by John Ball. John Ball is associated with the "When Adam..." couplet (which appeared in several Germanic languages during the medieval or renaissance period), though not its earliest originator. AnonMoos (talk) 07:35, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Drawn from an earlier source

I have removed the following paragraph from the article.

Extended content

Ball's famous first line "When Adam dug, and Eve span" was drawn from an earlier source, such as a poem on death in the Lincoln Thornton Manuscript. Some sources, unsympathetic to Ball, assert that he urged his audience to kill the principal lords of the kingdom and the lawyers, and that he was afterwards among those who rushed into the Tower of London to seize Simon of Sudbury, Archbishop of Canterbury. But Ball does not appear in most accounts after his speech at Blackheath.

It makes a number of claims, but without any sources to back them up. If the text is to be in the article then it needs citations (see WP:BURDEN) -- PBS (talk) 12:38, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Small, small, small

I have moved a paragraph to here:

Extended content
His words had a considerable effect in fomenting a riot which broke out in June 1381. The chroniclers were convinced of widespread conspiracy implanted before the spontaneous uprising occurred, with the watchword "John the Miller grinds small, small, small" and the response "The King's son of heaven shall pay for all."

The reason is that while it is easy to find the quote in a reliable source eg Payback: Debt and the Shadow Side of Wealth by Margaret Atwood (2012) page 141, it is not clear what the paragraph means. What words What riot (where) says who? Who says the watchword is proof of a conspiracy? What has the password to do with this biography on John Ball? -- PBS (talk) 13:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Page protection

"Edits to this page from new or unregistered users are subject to review prior to publication" I have put this level of protection on the page for one month due to excessive vandalism. -- PBS (talk) 12:37, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

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sudden juxtaposition of torture and rhyme in strange paragraph

The current version says Ball was drawn and quartered and his head put on a pike etc. Next sentence in this sublime paragraph says Ball might have had the gift of rhyme. I hope the rhyming consoled him for being drawn and quartered but we should have better transition from horrible to trivial.Rich (talk) 07:46, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

"Seynte Marie priest of York"

The current article states that John Ball called himself "Seynte Marie priest of York." What does this mean? I can't find a source for this precise quote on the internet. It certainly isn't in the Guardian review cited. Moreover, "Seynte Marie" links to the article for Mary, mother of Jesus, rather than St Mary's Abbey or St Mary's Church in York, so the article reads like John Ball is calling himself the Virgin Mary. SophiedeGrouchy (talk) 14:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)