Talk:Joaquín Balaguer

Allegation of Haitian heritage?

Explain what is the basis for the contention that Balaguer's Heureaux are of Haitian descent. I have read every word in the linked genealogy newspaper article, and found nothing of the sort. The mere fact that the name is French by no means proves that it is Haitian. May I point out that, as explained in my edit to the article, many French people left the French-controlled area during or before the slave rebellion that eventually gave rise to Haiti (and those who didn't were exterminated by the former slaves after they consolidated control). That does NOT make the French who left 'Haitians', since Haiti did not yet exist then, nor was that area referred as such (Saint Domingue was its name). Also, some French people migrated directly to the Eastern part (present-day DR) directly, without ever living in what eventually became Haiti. Please provide an answer before undoing my edit. Virgrod (talk) 03:40, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello Virgrod, I recently reverted your edit in this article because is a sensitive information and you have no references to back your claim. I am reverting again your revert and please do not include such information without references, Wikipedia consider that vandalism. Please take a look to this policy first. Osplace 13:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Osplace, did you actually read the specific text above to which you are apparently replying? You have not addressed the specific issues, have you?. Simply talking in the abstract about "sensitive information" does not explain sufficiently what is that you actually object. I would propose that BEFORE YOU REVERT, you kindly address the issues that are right there. If you are unable to do so, then please follow your own advise about vandalism. Virgrod (talk) 14:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello Virgrod, first of all we are not basing his heritage based on his French sounding last name (you've said you have read the sources, yet you are understanding it incorrectly). Just because you were born in Saint-Domingue in those times did not constitute a person as being French, which is a person specifically from France. French citizenship could only be acquired, when returning to France and for the mixed population who were granted their freedom. So essentially, if they are not Haitian and they are not French, (according to your argument) they would be stateless, which is even more INCORRECT. ([1] 1946 was the year when the other French Caribbean islands such as Guadeloupe and Martinique became official French citizens and overseas departments of France and had Saint-Domingue remained as a colony of France, the same rules would have applied). These people, whether white, mixed or black spoke the French Creole, and followed a culture similar but unique to the French (which united the people beyond passports were issued). With that being said, nobody is refuting that the people of Spanish descent born in the Captaincy General of Santo Domingo (Spanish colony) or those born between 1822-1844 were Dominican even though, there a. wasn't a Dominican Republic yet or a constitution in place and b. between 1822-1844 the island was under Haitian citizenship. The genocide and fleeing before and after independence is and has been irrelevant when referencing these people as Haitian today. Also, people flee countries all the time because of turmoil, but it still doesn't denote the fact that their cultural identity is of their former homeland. John James Audubon (white) [2], general Thomas-Alexandre Dumas (mixed; including his sons born in France)[3][4][5] etc., are all celebrated Haitians that were born in Saint-Domingue (or even descended from it) and died elsewhere even though they never acquired citizenship, (which is a petty excuse not to include them as it is so tried). Also, a video documentary called Forgotten Faces of Haiti (see: 06:30) [6] explains that "...all the French population or French colonists that were of certain traits who were considered useful for the country, were to be kept... such as doctors, teachers,...engineers that were kept and not to be harmed in any way)" Furthermore, Toussaint Louverture was the highest ranking French black general of all time who never even seen the Haitian constitution because he died in 1803 in France, yet would he not be considered Haitian? The argument can go both ways but the common denominator is that they are all considered Haitian. Haiti was a name used by the Taino that was merely reverted back to when the independence was sealed by Lt. Jean-Jacques Dessalines. (Even for a brief time in 1821, the Dominican Republic claimed independence from Spain as Spanish Haiti) The constant bickering, I have seen among others with the name change and the genocide in reference to this western portion of Hispaniola must end already. Savvyjack23 (talk) 21:26, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

In conclusion, Balaguer and Heureaux's family migrating from Saint-Domingue (as per source) would have indeed made them Haitian or of Haitian descent. Personally, I also find it ironic that the Trujillos and Balaguers, who instilled propaganda towards Haiti were of Franco-Haitian origin. I guess they could never get over the fact that their ancestors lost so much wealth in Saint-Domingue at the hands of the Haitian Revolution. It makes perfect sense for them to have a personal vendetta towards them and to try to extract their revenge. Meanwhile, all of this wasn't common knowledge at one time as it is now. Surely, it would have helped José Francisco Peña Gómez's presidential candidacy against Balaguer who politically said against Gomez that he could not be trusted because he was Haitian. I think that is ironically comical. If only he knew... Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:03, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Savvyjack23, please paste the sentence from the article that states that Balaguer's Heureaux are of Haitian descend. I am 100% fluent in Spanish and could not find it, but I may have missed it. With respect to French people who lived in the former French colony but left BEFORE Haiti even existed, AS I SAID IN MY EDIT, to call them 'Haitian' is at best controversial (I do not deny that one COULD do it, but it is by no means obvious that it is correct to do so). First of all, there were people there who arrived from France...obviously those were 100% French citizens. Their children were in all probability French citizens since they were born in French territory (jus soli) AND had French parents (jus sanguinis). Even if strangely they did not have French citizenship, since that area was NOT called Haiti then, and if they left before Haiti even existed, a better designation for them would be Saint-Dominguean (that part of the world was called Saint Domingue). I do not know whether the citizenship concept even applies to slaves, since they were --- quite unfortunately -- regarded as property that could be sold. Anyhow, in my edit I do NOT deny that some MAY call anyone who lived in what eventually became Haiti 'Haitian'. I simply said that doing so was CONTROVERSIAL. Do you disagree with that?Virgrod (talk) 00:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I have no issues pro or against Haitian descents. I am not referring to the subject, but in a general statement. Would you like to include information about any topic in any article? Find a reference and include it. If you fail doing so, as a part of WikiProject Dominican Republic, I will remove this claim, allegation or whatever you add without a reference in a very important article for the Dominican Republic like this. Osplace 23:25, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Osplace, the ALLEGATION being made BY OTHERS before my edit was that Balaguer's Heureaux were of Haitian descent. A newspaper article is given as a source. However, I read the entire article and cannot find in that particular newspaper article that the Heureaux's are of Haitian descent. Can you point to me the specific sentence that says the Heureaux were Haitian? Please do so before editing the article.Virgrod (talk) 00:17, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry Osplace, I'm not sure what you mean by that, regardless of WikiProject edits are to be made without bias. As for citing references, are you being serious? If I cannot find a reference I do not include my own personal work. With my examples above, you should be able to see that. Anyhow, I wasn't the one who edited that section in such detail originally. The reference that editor cited is being ignored on the "argument" made by Virgrod that the people from Saint-Domingue aren't Haitian, which I happily dispelled above. Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:17, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I know what a reference is. I just removed this: The Heureaux are alleged to be of Haitian descent. However, this usage of the term Haitian seems inappropriate, because although they may descend from French people who may have lived in the part of the island where present-day Haiti is located, they did so while under French rule (in what was then called Saint Domingue), and left before the former slaves have consolidated their control and founded present-day Haiti. Indeed, the White population that remained in Saint Domingue after the former slaves took control was killed during the 1804 Haiti Massacre. Non just because it says are alleged (how sure is an allegation?) or they may descend (may they do not descend? Indeed), but it says seems inappropriate (Personal opinion, not allowed according to WP:OR). But is just the main idea of the investigation of someone, who? Is there any cite backing that under French rule...? If there is, it should be located in the appropiate article about the 1804 Haiti Massacre, Haiti or Saint Domingue. Is it really about Joaquín Balaguer? If you take that portion out, you will not have any Haitian claims, Haiti is not mentioned before. Is metioned afted in Third presidency section under Peña Gomez conflict. Do the Joaquín Balaguer parents are Haitian descendants? Probably they do, probably no. Find a reference saying they are and you can include it here, in this article. Osplace 02:20, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Ulises Hilarion Heureaux Lebert (Lilís, 1845-1899). General restorer son of a Haitian father...his father, a Haitian captain of the French merchant marine, refused to raise him. (Translated from Spanish based on, "Cassá, Roberto: Gregorio Luperon and History of the Restoration, Autonomous University of Santo Domingo, 2004, Santo Domingo").[7] You can also check his descendants here [8], as his father D'assas Heureaux was born in Haiti and died on 5 Jan 1905 in Puerto Plata. Also, Virgrod I do not appreciate the rewording you have done to these articles as no part of what you rewrote are sourced in these references given to us by another user. Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:42, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Savvyjack23, citing a website is unreliable because the website may itself be based on wiki. Nevertheless, you apparently have confirmed that the newspaper article did NOT say anything about the Haitian heritage of the Heureaux. I do know that Cassa [Cassá, Roberto (2001). Ulises Heureaux: el tirano perfecto (in Spanish). Santo Domingo: Tobogán. p. 15. ISBN 9789993483496. OCLC 51220478.] says about Lilis that "Su madre, Josefa Leibert, era nativa de Saint Thomas, y su padre, D’Assas Heureaux, hijo de un francés, fue uno de los tantos haitianos que prefirió hacerse dominicano cuando se declaró la independencia en 1844". That is, D’Assas had a FRENCH father (the paternal grandfather of Lilis). Lilis is believed to have been born in 1845, which suggests his father D’Assas likely was born after the foundation of Haiti or right about that time (if D'Assas was born in 1804, he would have been 41 when Lilis was born). Since no one has claimed that D’Assas' French father was killed by the former slaves, it is then a safe inference that he DID ESCAPE to the Western side (today's DR) with his children (if any) before Haiti was founded by the rebellious slaves. So, D'Assas likely was born on the Eastern (now Dominican) side or was born in Western Saint Domingue but arrived to the Eastern side with his French father before Haiti was founded. Hence D'Assas was never a Haitian. Let me know if I am missing something. Virgrod (talk) 02:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me Virgrod, did you or did you not read what I wrote above? French citizenship was given to the French Caribbean in 1945. People from Saint-Domingue were not exactly French unless they went to France (which their French fathers usually did to give them a better education) and had acquired it. Your way to rationalize this with your own viewpoints without a single reference is insulting given the effort I am trying to make here. Toussaint Louverture was born a slave and made general of the highest rank for a black man. He was indeed French and had as much rights as the next white man. How could he be in control of a French army without being French? He is also recognized as a founding father of Haiti. Generally, slaves were not free, therefore never going to France to acquire citizenship. There are exceptions; Jean-Baptiste Belley was born a slave in Senegal, then brought to Saint-Domingue and then later became French and a member of the National Convention and the Council of Five Hundred of France advocating that slavery be abolished. Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

It may seem controversial at first, but given the references and the breakdown of who would be considered French or Haitian is overwhelming. By the way, there is no such thing as Saint-Dominguean, there you are trying to rationalize it by yourself again. Domingue is only the French version for Domingo which is Spanish. They would both translate to Dominican after Saint Dominic, the patron Saint of both sides at the time (still is I believe for D.R.). Anyway, it could also be controversial for the Dominicans as well. When independence was made from Spain in 1821, they essentially dropped the Santo Domingo (which only remained as the capital) for the name Spanish Haiti and then became citizens of Haiti for 22 years. But am I trying to say they aren't Dominican? No. Could I attempt to dispute? It may be possible, but what good would that do? Same here. Its not doing any good labeling them as French when the facts are disproving it. But yes by blood they are French. They were Haitian of French descent even though they might have never acquired it. Its like an American born in the United States born to French parents. The only thing that changed was the name of Saint-Domingue to Haiti. All of Haiti's founders were all born (except Henri Christophe) in Saint-Domingue. Savvyjack23 (talk) 01:07, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Savvyjack23, I do not know follow the citizenship issue of Martinique. I can see a potential difference between a person born in Martinique with a French parent, and one born there who did not have a French parent. Are you sure that a child born in Martinique to a 100% FRENCH PARENT was not considered a French citizens until recently? I do know there are two widely used citizenship criteria, which I gave you a link for (did you check it?): Just soli (your birthplace determines your citizenship) and jus sanguinis (you inherit your citizenship). The linked wiki articles have plenty of references. French immigrants to Saint Domingue were 100% French, obviously, and their children should have been French by either citizenship criteria. And if they weren't (which I doubt) that would NOT make them Haitians, any more than Taino Indians were Haitians (or Dominicans). The vast majority (not to say all) learned people, simply refer to Taino Indians as Taino without specifying any other nationality regardless of the part of the island where they lived (not such a thing as a Dominican or Haitian Taino). Likewise, people don't normally refer to Aztecs as Mexicans, etc. Of course, YOU may choose to call the Tainos who lived in what today is Haiti Haitians, as well as any French person who once lived in that area. But I do not believe that a wiki article should follow that convention, since it is non-standard. What applies to the Tainos in this regard, should also apply to the French people who left before Haiti existed (those who didn't were slaughtered, anyhow). Not only were these Frenchmen not Haitians, but they were the Haitians' bitter enemies. No wonder many Dominicans independence war heroes were of FRENCH (not Haitian) descent...they were fighting their bitter enemies, the Haitians, who had slaughtered their ancestors. If you need a source on this, let me know. The issue of the former slaves is quite different, because they REMAINED in that area after they themselves founded Haiti, and they themselves called themselves Haitians. Furthermore, Haitians also specified that Haitian citizenship followed the jus sanguini principle, and that non-Blacks were excluded. You agree with that, right? Let me repeat AGAIN that in my edit I simply pointed out that ascribing RETROACTIVELY Haitian "citizenship" to people who left that area before it became Haiti is at best controversial. It is certainly wrong for French immigrants who went there and left as French citizens. Virgrod (talk) 01:39, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I am 100% certain. Check a book called Code Noir also. It was a book on rights in the French colonies. Also, Saint-Domingue, Guadeloupe and Martinique had the same laws applied to them. I know what Jus soli and Jus sanguinis is, that argument is irrelevant in this case. whether you choose to believe it or not, facts are facts. They were not French citizens. They were from Saint-Domingue whose name reverted back to the original name Haiti. If you cannot comment on Guadeloupe and Martinique, then you cannot comment about Haiti. These universes were parallel up until the Haitian Revolution. Like I said before, people leave their countries all the time for a better life that doesn't mean they are not from the country they are from. If you knew about the history of Haiti you would know what I am talking about. After all the references I have cited above, you still have no clue. Check this article out, written by a Dominican named FRANCISCO BERROA UBIERA, EDITOR DE NOTICULAS HISTORICAS DOMINICANAS [9] How does he know his Presidents had Haitian origins and not you? Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Please, use the colons to create an indentation. I answered the Lilis point above. Code Noir best I can see applied to slaves. Where does it says that it was applied to the children of white FRENCH citizens? That was my point above (Martinique-born children of FRENCH people, and Martinique-born children of former slaves may have been treated very differently under French law...unfortunately)Virgrod (talk) 02:23, 2 December 2014 (UTC).

To recount all those who went to France to acquire citizenship is hard to justify. But like I said, even those who acquired it were still from Saint-Domingue. Like I said before, Toussaint Louverture is a perfect example. He was born a slave in Saint-Domingue and rose up to be free and acquired citizenship of France and was the general of the army, died in France in 1803 a year before Haitian independence. There are French films about him. But, guess what? He's still Haitian. Thank you. Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:18, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I suppose you wrote that before my previous edit. Yes, Toussaint Louverture as the LEADER of the revolution that gave rise to Haiti is considered by all a Haitian. How could he not be??? That does NOT mean that the French people against whom he was FIGHTING should also be considered Haitians. Certainly not the ones that came from France. Yes, people do leave their country all the time...but people who left Saint Domingue before Haiti existed did not leave a country at all, they moved from a French territory to another. Haiti was no one's country then, since it hadn't yet been created.Virgrod (talk) 02:34, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I will Osplace, thank you. Also, I proved the Heureaux connection above. As for Balaguer, there is a relation between him and Heureaux that perhaps wasn't as clear because it is going back a long time. However, editor FRANCISCO BERROA UBIERA [10] seems to acknowledge this fact. Also, I think it was unfair to call it Haitian vandalism on the articles you recently edited removing the section with a reference to Franco-Haitian surnames from the capital of Santo Domingo itself. Okay so you need validation, but to call it vandalism or "Haitian stuff"? That's not right... Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

You need to take a look to WP:BLOGS, and for sure to the whole WP:RELIABLE. Osplace 03:07, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Virgrod, what's wrong with you? Just because its called Code Noir doesn't mean its only about slaves, it talks about the Jewish people and those in the colony as well. Like I said before, to ALL CITIZENS of the French colonies (white, black or whatever) were not recognized as French citizens until 1945 AS THEY THEN BECAME PART OF FRANCE ITSELF. Had Saint-Domingue remained a colony of France this law would have went into a affect for them as well, but it never did. In the French-speaking Canada, they were Franco-Canadian, not French. In New Orleans, the whites were known as French Creoles or Creoles. It was like saying French-American. Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:40, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Virgrod, that is your opinion and you are making assumptions. This topic has been long talked about. I had two categories deleted French Santo Domingo descent etc., where eight or nine senior editors agreed with the Haitian descent. I can recall them all again if you'd like. You can talk to them about it. Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:44, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Savvyjack23, Once again, since you do not use the colon it is hard for me to follow you. I know of no senior editor getting involved here. I opened this topic because I found no previous discussion. And for the nth time, in my edit I do NOT deny that some have called Lili's father a Haitian (Cassa has, although the chronology seems to contradicts him, as I explained above, which you apparently ignored). I just pointed out that "retroactively" calling Haitian people who left that area before Haiti even existed was "controversial". That is all. I frankly fail to see why is that such a big deal to you. And like I said, nobody (including you) calls Haitian (or Dominican) the Taino people who lived in that island. Don't you agree? As for the Code Noir, I have found no evidence yet that it excluded the children of white French colonists from French citizenship. Where does it say that? Virgrod (talk) 03:06, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

• Title, Haití: el drama nacional. Author, Jean Ghasmann Bissainthe. Publisher, Ediciones Librería La Trinitaria, 2012. ISBN, 9945004867, 9789945004861
• Manual de la Historia de Haití " J. C. Dorsainvil 1942

All confirming Haitian descent to both Balaguer and Heureaux as well as others. Seems like you are the only one having a difficult time with this Virgrod. Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I do NOT have those books in front of me. But for the nth time, I do not dispute that some people may have called "Haitian" some French people who left that area before Haiti even existed. I simply pointed out that doing so IS controversial. It is clearly NOT done for the Taino Indians (even though they never left the area), because it is understood by all that Tainos lived and died before Haiti or the DR existed. You do agree, right? So it IS controversial to call other people who left the area before Haiti existed "Haitian", when the Tainos are not called Haitians (or Dominicans)...nor are Aztecs called Mexicans, nor Incas called Peruvians, etc. That is my point. Virgrod (talk) 03:26, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Okay, understood. Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Closing, Savvyjack23 please write the reference properly, I will check you do so. And we need to re-write this: The Heureaux are alleged to be of Haitian descent. However, this usage of the term Haitian seems inappropriate, because although they may descend from French people who may have lived in the part of the island where present-day Haiti is located, they did so while under French rule (in what was then called Saint Domingue), and left before the former slaves have consolidated their control and founded present-day Haiti. Indeed, the White population that remained in Saint Domingue after the former slaves took control was killed during the 1804 Haiti Massacre. We do not need ALL This here. Agreed? Osplace 04:10, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Osplace, if you want to claim that Balaguer's Heureaux were of Haitians descend, it must be clarified that (by all indications) they did leave Western Saint Domingue (today's Haiti) with the French father under French rule, BEFORE Haiti had been founded. That is relevant information that allows the reader to reach his/her own conclusion about this issue. The 1804 Haiti Massacre actually proves the point in time when they left, because the French father would have been killed had he remained in Haiti after foundation. The fact he wasn't killed clearly proves that he left while the area was still under French rule. Furthermore, the chronology (see my previous comments) suggests that his son D'Assas may have actually been born after his father had arrived in Eastern Saint Domingue (today's DR), or born in Western SD before Haiti existed (in which case he fathered Lilis in his 40's). With what of this (if any) do you disagree? Virgrod (talk) 13:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough Osplace and agreed, it is overly excessive. Savvyjack23 (talk) 04:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Savvyjack23 Please, see my reply to Osplace above. Virgrod (talk) 13:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Savvyjack23 and Osplace, I have reworded the passage under discussion as: "Ulises Heureaux's father was D’Assas Heureaux, himself a mulatto son of a Frenchman. D’Assas has been described as a Haitian who chose to become Dominican after the Dominican declaration of independence in 1844[3]. However, calling D’Assas a Haitian is controversial, because his French father must have left Western Saint Domingue while still under French rule, and before the 1804 Haiti Massacre. Hence, D'Assas either was born in or reached present-day Dominican Republic with his French father before Haiti came into existence.". That is the best I have been able to do. I hope it preserves all relevant information while addressesing all issues in a fair way. Virgrod (talk) 20:07, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry Virgrod, it isn't controversial at you are making it out to be, all that extra wording is rubbish. Franco-Haitian is what they were. It's not rocket science. Again, stop trying to self-rationalize it. I have sources and other editors who would agree. You were also one who said Haiti is not situated in Latin America; look where you got in that discussion. Savvyjack23 (talk) 21:54, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry Savvyjack23 but it is definitely controversial to retroactively apply citizenship status to people that left an area before a country existed, especially when it is well-known that such treatment is not given to the Taino people who lived in that very region and never left (nor are other pre-Colombian civilizations ascribed to present-day countries or nationalities). Why should French people who left before Haiti existed be treated differently? Furthermore, it is not even clear that D'Assas Heureaux was born inside what today is Haitian territory, as has been explained several times. Anyway, the latest text simply puts down all the facts according to the references; do you agree?. Perhaps you can at least allow the reader to reach its own conclusion. Wouldn't that work for you?. Virgrod (talk) 22:52, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

You reminded me of the Latin America definition. Last I check. ed two major English-language dictionaries defined LA as including either (i) only the Spanish/Portuguese-speaking regions of the Americas or (ii) all people south of the US. Neither one included French/Spanish/Portuguese speakers only, as apparently you claimed. Did you manage to convince others that both major dictionaries were wrong? But that is a different discussion, anyway. Maybe it should be continued in the appropriate page. Virgrod (talk) 22:52, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Savvyjack23 Since you appear to have a strong concern about the word "controversy" I have REMOVED it. Now the text simply says that "concerning D’Assas' nationality, it is also relevant that his French father..." etc. I suppose that you agree that the circumstances/timing of the French father departure from the West towards the East, etc. are RELEVANT information. Don't you agree? Virgrod (talk) 23:29, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

D'Assas' father Pierre Alejandro Heureaux was born in France or New Orleans from about 1808 to 1818. D'Assas' was born in was born in Haiti after its independence (1804), so this is a useless conversation.[11] [12] Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Savvyjack23 Sorry but why should we believe that a genealogy website is a reliable source for an encyclopedia? In fact, some of those websites may be repeating what they read right here. Anyway, the statement written above cannot possibly be true. Lilis, the son of D'Assas, is known to have been born in 1845. How could D'Assas' father (that is, Lilis' GRANDFATHER) be born as late as 1818 (just 27 years earlier than Lilis)?? At the very least the GRANDFATHER must have been born 40 years or so earlier. But even that is too little, because he would have never lived in W. SD then (it is extremely unlikely, not to say impossible, that a French person would migrate to Haiti after the 1804 Massacre). D'Assas father (assuming he did live in W. SD) must have left as an adult before the 1804 Massacre, as explained many times already. He must have been born in France way before 1804, so that he would have time to migrate to W. SD and leave before 1804. Perhaps they are talking about a different person, or are just wrong. Virgrod (talk) 00:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

References:

• Ulises Heureaux: biografía de un dictador By Mu-Kien Adriana Sang (pg 9)
• Peña Gómez en la sociedad haitiana Manati', 2002 (pg 40)
• Ulises Heureaux "...son of Haitian father called D' assas Heureaux and its called mother Josefa Level of San Thomas, spoke English and French."
• Ulises Heureaux Política, República Dominicana "General restaurador hijo de padre haitiano..."
• Cápsulas Genealógicas: Ancestros, descendientes y parientes colaterales de Joaquín Balaguer (hoy.com.do) "In the biographies of Dr. Joaquín Balaguer, their parents are named as Joaquín Balaguer Ricardo Lespier and Carmen Celia. Why mention both names of his father and not the mother? The reason is obvious: avoid association and linkage with the dictator Ulises Hilarion Heureaux Lebert (Lilís), who his mother was a cousin."
• Title, Haití: el drama nacional. Author, Jean Ghasmann Bissainthe. Publisher, Ediciones Librería La Trinitaria, 2012. ISBN, 9945004867, 9789945004861
• Manual de la Historia de Haití " J. C. Dorsainvil 1942

They all say Haitian. Please stop alerting me in the message. Thanks. Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:38, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

The references are consistent with the present text of the article. The text clearly says that D'Assas has been described as Haitian. The text simply adds some RELEVANT information, to allow the reader to reach his/her own conclusion, which may be the same as yours or may be different. Adding RELEVANT information cannot hurt. You however seem to take the approach of "my way or the highway". A while back your main issue was the word "controversial" which is now gone. That is wrong for a public site that you do not own (neither do I). Just let the reader make his/her own mind, after reviewing all relevant information. Why is that a problem? Virgrod (talk) 01:25, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

This whole paragraph should be relocated:

Ulises Heureaux's father was D’Assas Heureaux, himself a mulatto son of a Frenchman. D’Assas has been described as a Haitian who chose to become Dominican after the Dominican declaration of independence in 1844. However, concerning D’Assas' nationality, it is also relevant that his French father must have left Western Saint Domingue (present-day Haiti) before the 1804 Haiti Massacre, while that area was still a French colony. Hence, D'Assas either was born in present-day Dominican Republic, or arrived there with his French father before Haiti came into existence.

Take this to Ulises Heureaux's article: Ulises Heureaux's father was D’Assas Heureaux, himself a mulatto son of a Frenchman. D’Assas has been described as a Haitian who chose to become Dominican after the Dominican declaration of independence in 1844..

For complete deletion: However, concerning D’Assas' nationality, it is also relevant that his French father must have left Western Saint Domingue (present-day Haiti) before the 1804 Haiti Massacre, while that area was still a French colony. Hence, D'Assas either was born in present-day Dominican Republic, or arrived there with his French father before Haiti came into existence. No references. Completely WP:OR! Anyway, if taken into account, it should be included into Ulises Heureaux's article, were should be way more relevant than Joaquín Balaguer's article.

"(...) who was also a cousin of President Ulises Heureaux(...)"' is enough in this article. The rest of the discussion should be taken out. Where? Probably to an article about D’Assas Heureaux. Should this article meet WP:NOTE? I am probably not, take into account that notability is not inherited. Can you both of you calm down? Most of this discussion is about D’Assas Heureaux being a Haitian or not, I am right? Osplace 01:29, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Osplace, the discussion about D'Assas arose because some want to claim that Balaguer was of Haitian descend. This claims follows from the fact that he was a distant relative of D'Assas, whom has been called a Haitian. Hence, whether or not D'Assas is truly a Haitian has a direct impact on the claim that Balaguer is of Haitian descend. On the other hand if that claim is removed, I would agree that the discussion on D'Assas is not sufficiently relevant. If the Haitian claim is to remain, then one could simply open a subsection called "Balaguer's links to Haiti" or something like that, in which to discuss these issues. As stated I have no problem adding that some sources D'Assas a Haitian, but the relevant information about the his circumstances should then also be added for the reader's edification. For the record, the article on Ulises Heureaux does have a similar text about D'Assas. Virgrod (talk) 01:48, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes user Virgrod, you are right. The discussion is relevant to keep or remove the category Haitian descendant. If we keep this section unreferenced and WP:OR, (However, concerning D’Assas' nationality, it is also relevant that his French father must have left Western Saint Domingue (present-day Haiti) before the 1804 Haiti Massacre, while that area was still a French colony. Hence, D'Assas either was born in present-day Dominican Republic, or arrived there with his French father before Haiti came into existence.) Then we will have to keep the category to Haitian descendant. Osplace 18:09, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Osplace, I suggest that we do keep the discussion in a small subsection, exploring the issue of Balaguer's Haitian ascendance. I believe it is a fair point, and that readers would want to know about it. And, as I have said several times, I agree that it is legitimate and appropriate to mention that several authors DO CALL D'Assas a Haitian. I think up to his point we both agree, right? I simply believe that after mentioning what the authors say about D'Assas, we should go a bit further by adding the relevant facts that have been mentioned, for reader's edification. This is like the saying "tell the truth, but the WHOLE truth... As to your point about references and OR, the only thing that needs to be referenced is the 1804 Haiti Massacre. I suppose that article has the needed reference, don't you agree?. If you accept that that event did occur (and I suppose you do) then what follows is a very simple (trivial) deduction that cannot possibly be called "research". If all white French people of W SD which remained there after the French withdrawal lost their lives, and D'Assas father was still alive after that event, then it IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWS that he must have left W. S.D. BEFORE THAT EVENT. Do you agree? That is not research, it is very simple logic. It also immediately follows that if his son D'Assas was already born he left with his father (also before the establishment of the Haitian state) or he was born after his French father had arrived in the East. Again, this is not research, just very simple logic. To conclude: Let us keep the discussion in a separate subsection (e.g., Balaguer's Possible Haitian ascendance) and put there what is being said about D'Assas (including the very simple logical inferences about the relocation of his father). I hope you agree. Virgrod (talk) 19:13, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

No, is not that way: "the referenced you need are located in 1804 Haiti Massacre and is simple logic..." No. Is there a reference needed to back up your claim there? Then add it to your claim here and is done. Is not about me. Wikipedia works that work. A casual reader that have not ever read about the 1804 Haiti Massacre needs to uderstand inmediately what are you talking about, how it happened, why is that information relevant there and how is supported. References are not logical. If a reference says or mean something without interpratation, is the source you need. Citing WP:OR: The only way you can show your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains the same material. Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to reach or imply a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research. Osplace 02:44, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Osplace If you mean references stating that the 1804 Haiti Massacre did occur, I see no problem with it. I will find them in that article or elsewhere. Is that is? Virgrod (talk) 03:44, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I mean the reference stating how is relevant the 1804 Haiti Massacre in the Joaquín Balaguer article. It should be something about D'Assas and that time. Is not about if the 1804 Haiti Massacre happened or not, and yes when talking about it, then reference it, but you HAVE TO include a reference backing that the "white French people of W SD which remained there after the French withdrawal lost their lives, and D'Assas father was still alive after that event...(...)... or he was born after his French father had arrived in the East." Remember this, taken from WP:REF: "Wikipedia's Verifiability policy requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations, anywhere in article space. However, editors are advised to provide citations for all material added to Wikipedia; any unsourced material risks being unexpectedly challenged or eventually removed." Unless you can back your claim, please refrain yourself from editing the article. You are suppose to wait until the discussion is closed. Both of you, let's re-arrange the paragraph according what we have now. Here! Not in the mainspace article!. Osplace 23:01, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I, myself am still getting my sources together for Balaguer, but as far as Ulises Heureaux is concerned; all the sources are present for viewing and use. (in case you were asking for him as well) Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:07, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Even though relocated to the notes section: "However, concerning D’Assas' nationality, it is also relevant that his French father must have left Western Saint Domingue (present-day Haiti) before the 1804 Haiti Massacre, while that area was still a French colony. Hence, D'Assas either was born in present-day Dominican Republic, or arrived there with his French father before Haiti came into existence..." still cannot be sourced and still falls under WP:OR

As for "Ulises Heureaux’s father was D’Assas Heureaux, himself a mulatto son of a Frenchman. D’Assas has been described as a Haitian who chose to become Dominican after the Dominican declaration of independence in 1844." The problem here is the lone source that uses the words "described as Haitian". The question is, is he or isn't he?? The source makes that unclear and extremely vague, which is why I gathered a number of sources to verify it. Savvyjack23 (talk) 21:14, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

References

Untitled

this article is completely ridiculous. sounds like written by a grand child of the monster.

1. he was not only accused of fraud, but also of ordering hundreds of political murders.

2. as a fact journalists, trade unionists and political dissidents of his politics were massively liquidated during the 60's, 70's and to a lesser extent the 80's. as president he bears ultimate responsibility for this.

3. as another fact even in the 90's people from poor neighborhoods were not allowed to walk in the "nice" parts of town at night. they would get arrested immediately and spent the night in jail. members of my family didn't dare to leave their barrio at night because of this. only the election of Leonel changed this almost overnight and the could start to enjoy going out in the colonial section at nigth time.

--- This is not a true representation of reality, I myself grew up in the 80's and 90's in Santo Domingo and people did not get arrested at night for being in 'nice' areas, his later periods were mild in comparison to the 12 years. The article should reflect truth, not people's long held contempt for the rich or the well to do and blame it on Balaguer.

I agree with the political murders, although, any Dominican will tell you that although it is suspected he was behind them, being the mastermind he was, no one has been able to prove his involvement, and many, many have tried. Lets stay as a factual source of info, not a compilation of urban fears, resentments and myths.

---

Also, The Feast of the Goat ends six months after Trujillo's 1961 execution. It covers Balaguer's maneuvering in that period, not in 1966.

This work is clearly biased towards Balaguer, especially his final term in office, acknowledged by many including the IMF as a de facto dictatorship.

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---

this article does seem a bit biased, but what strikes me more than that is its many spelling and grammatical errors, not to mention a number of words that have been invented. so, is there an historian on the dominican republic who could spend a fair amount of time editing this tripe? sincerely, some fool

---

Reads like an essay that was originally written in Spanish and then put through a computer translator. Does not represent neutral point of view, e.g., Soviet elections were not "rigged," but "arranged in advance." Hardly forms the basis for a serious article on Balaguer - better to replace it entirely.

Desert Center 14:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Be bold

Start editing. Flor Silvestre 19:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

forest protector?

Jared Diamond stated that Joaquín Balaguer was a forest protector in his book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed", albeit that Balaguer used repressive means to protect the forests of Dominican Republic, but was it true that Balaguer really wanted to protect the forests(to protect for preserving) even though he might have any other consideration(e.g. to protect for any other reason other than merely preserving them)? and if it's a truth, should we add it to this article?--EPN-001GF IZEN བཀྲ་ཤིས་བདེ་ལེགས། 12:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

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Allegation of Haitian heritage

See the Ancestry website for Joaquín Balaguer. His family connections are well-documented from sources unavailable to the public. His mother is the daughter of Rosa Amelia Heureaux, whose mother is Marie Claire Furcine Warlook, daughter of Joseph Chéri Warlock père. He in turn is the son of Simeon Worlock fils, the British smallpox inoculator in Saint-Domingue in the late 1700's. Note how the name is spelled differently in succeeding generations.

The entire lengthy text of the previous revision is five years old and highly speculative. The facts are known and the issue is moot, so the conversation is deleted in total.

Monsanto Beach (talk) 18:13, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:24, 1 April 2023 (UTC)