Talk:Jefferson Starship/Archive 1

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Lawsuit

The lawsuit was not over the name Jefferson Starship. The issue was about who controls Jefferson Airplane, Inc.'s interests. Paul didn't win the suit; there was a settlement out of court. Grace and Bill Thompson held on to Grunt Records. The agreement at the end of the suit was that if Paul left the band, Paul could not use the name "Jefferson" or "Airplane" for any of his projects unless all the owners of Jefferson Airplane, Inc. agreed to it (Bill Thompson, Paul Kantner, Grace Slick, Jorma Kaukonen, Jack Casady). Paul was then paid $80,000 for signing the agreement. JoeD80 (talk) 22:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:JeffersonStarship.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Jeff Pevar

Should I add him to the band? He's playing bass at almost all the shows this year. JoeD80 (talk) 23:27, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Personnel List

Can we reduce the size of this unwieldy list? The personnel isn't really as complicated as it looks, and maybe it would just be fine to list each band member once along with month/years active. JoeD80 (talk) 18:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Splitting Jefferson Airplane / Jefferson Starship/Starship

They're technically three different projects that all had differences in sound and band membership. Even if there are references to the other bands on the Jefferson Airplane page, they really should have their own pages. Both other bands were quiet successful in their own right. Also, there was a definite split that marked Starship being different than Jefferson Starship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.91.36 (talk) 01:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Splitting Jefferson Airplane / Jefferson Starship

I have set up this article using information originally included in the main article about Jefferson Airplane.

I felt that the connections between the two bands are not sufficiently strong to justify keeping the information in the Airplane article, especially in regard to the later band, Starship, which has almost no connection with Jefferson Airplane either stylistically or in terms of personnel.

I also felt that the large amount of personnel/discographical detail about Jefferson Starship and Starship made the Airplane article (IMO) overlong and very messy and that it was best dealt with by setting up a separate article.

As I have no interest in these later bands, I'm hoping someone with an interest in them will continue to edit and refine this new article.

There is some concern about the removal of this material from the Airplane article but I feel that it is warranted and improves both articles in terms of concision and relevance.Dunks 03:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe they are more connected, as Paul Kantner was in the band from 1965 - 1984; They used the same office staff between Airplane and Starship; Jefferson Starship continued to use 2400 Fulton Street as a base of operations until 1985; The Grunt Records label was used until 1987; Bill Thompson continued to be their manager all the way to 1991; However, I think that splitting the articles is a good idea considering the size of them. JoeD80 (talk) 20:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Splitting Jefferson Starship / Jefferson Starship: TNG

On the subject of splitting articles, it is probably a good idea to separate the Jefferson Starship of 1991 - Present from the one before. The current Jefferson Starship is related more to KBC Band than to the old Jefferson Starship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.149.74.206 (talk) 02:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea. Tim Gorman and Slick Aguilar both started in KBC. JoeD80 (talk) 22:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Splitting Jefferson Starship / Starship: Why?

What's the reason for splitting these two articles? The band didn't break up and re-form. The band just continued without David Freiberg and Paul Kantner and recorded Knee Deep in the Hoopla with Peter Wolf who had done work on Nuclear Furniture. They continued with the same staff and same manager, and still released on Grunt Records as I mentioned above. (The original split that seemed appropriate was Jefferson Airplane / Jefferson Starship) JoeD80 (talk) 22:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

You just answered your own question. They split with David Freiberg and Paul Kantner. Without those two it was a different band. Lots of other bands continued with a different name after longtime members left. They have their own articles. This needs fixed pronto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.91.36 (talk) 01:43, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Also the Greatest Hits album released in 1991 contains tracks from Freedom at Point Zero, Modern Times, and Nuclear Furniture. JoeD80 (talk) 22:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the splits were probably not necessary, and that Starship and Jefferson Starship were basically the same band, but I disagree with your combination of KBC Band and TNG into one article; no one in the band has asserted that they are the same group (even if there are similarities), and thus to avoid WP:NOR, and since we have enough to say about both, I have created Jefferson Starship - The Next Generation for consistency. Every differently named band now has its own article: Jefferson Airplane, Hot Tuna, Jefferson Starship, KBC Band, Starship (band), and Jefferson Starship - The Next Generation. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 11:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That discussion is just right above. Five members of KBC were in TNG, so it seemed logical. They even played a lot of KBC songs in concert. No one spoke up so I moved it. Splitting it is probably the best though, since all the others were split, and you are right that no one called it the same band. JoeD80 (talk) 20:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Merging "Jefferson Starship " and "Jefferson Starship - The Next Generation"

There's a discussion about merging "Jefferson Starship" and "Jefferson Starship - The Next Generation" at "Talk:Jefferson Starship - The Next Generation#Merge proposal". Please comment there to keep that discussion in one place. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

great band, great article

You all did a great job on this, one of my favorite US bands. Thanks, Mugginsx (talk) 21:32, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Group Photo?

The group photo in the article shows the group "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas" and not the current Jefferson Starship lineup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.252.12.70 (talk) 00:01, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 21:04, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Supernatural Reference

The band has been referenced in the TV Supernatural, here is the article on the Supernatural wiki, http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Jefferson_Starship 24.52.232.87 (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Hard to kill

The last sentence of the first paragraph read as "They have teeth and spines and are also horrible and hard to kill." As far as my research indicates, this has nothing to do with Jefferson Starship, and a Google search of that string links back to this entry and only this entry. I have deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Variable rush (talk • contribs) 03:01, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

A race of monsters in the TV show supernatural was humorously named Jefferson Starships by the protagonist Dean. This is probably where this came from. I have added a link below with more details. 24.52.232.87 (talk) 16:40, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Re-examining the article split

I hate to bring this up again, but I find it difficult to support keeping Jefferson Starship and Starship (band) together as one article when they currently *both* have seperate and distinct lineups operating. The top of this article shows the membership of "Jefferson Starship" as it currently stands. But "Starship" still exists, headed by Mickey Thomas. I think that, no matter what the members *at the time* felt, most people see the distinction between "Jefferson Starship" and "Starship", as epitomized by the compilation album, "Hits", which is credited as being by "Jefferson Airplane / Jefferson Starship / Starship".

For clarity and so the convoluted nature of the band's history can be more clearly absorbed, I really feel that Starship (band) needs to be reinstated as an individual article. Rhindle The Red (talk) 04:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree entirely. It doesn't make coherent sense for them to be treated as the same band, especially when this page seems to focus predominantly on Jefferson Starship and not Starship. Burbridge92 (talk) 16:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I was just getting ready to start a discussion about this when I saw someone already had. The release of Starship's new album independent of Kantner makes the need for an article split even more obvious. If no one objects, I'll go ahead and reinstate the Starship article. The Wookieepedian (talk) 04:12, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Rachel Rose

The article lists Rachel Rose as one of the current members of Jefferson Starship. The band is on tour now, and Rose is not listed as one of the band members on their official website. (Go to http://www.jeffersonstarship.net/ and click on About.) Does anyone know when she left the band? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:35, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

It may be that the website had not been updated to include her as a member; checking reliable sources here, as late as February 2016, Rose was singing with them.See here. I can't find much information for shows much later than the February-March 2016 time period, but there's no information she left the band. It may also be that she's not an official member, just a touring vocalist. Bands are funny that way in who they count as "official members" vs. who is merely a contract player or a guest musician. There have been bands that have had "guest" musicians that have played with them for YEARS, without being official credited members. See Ian Stewart (musician). --Jayron32 12:20, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't know if Rachel Rose is part of the current tour or not. So I guess we should go with the sources. Although the band's official website is also a source. Anyway, thanks for the quick response. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 12:54, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

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I am reverting the edits performed by user Cheryl Fullerton as they do not reflect a NPOV. Her referring to the current incarnation of Jefferson Starship as a tribute band in one of her edits is taking sides in a legal dispute. 209.212.21.193 (talk) 20:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

I cannot make the edits directly here, so I am requesting the article be reverted back to the 15:10, 3 May 2017‎ version, prior to the edits of Cheryl Fullerton that speak of this band in the past tense and take sides in litigation that has not been settled. 209.212.21.193 (talk) 20:28, 15 July 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hello Wikipedians,

I am not seeking to take sides in the current litigation with regards to the name, Jefferson Starship. I am seeking to clarify the difference between the original Jefferson Starship band, which wrote, recorded and performed the actual hit songs and albums between 1974 – 1985, when the band ended, and the Paul Kantner solo projects which he called “Jefferson Starship” but which featured many different musicians over the post-1992 years, including this current line-up which was with Paul at the time of his passing. I am seeking to make the difference between these two uses of the name more clear to users of Wikipedia.

Other edits I have made have balanced the article by reducing formerly large sections of unsourced Jefferson Airplane, Hot Tuna, Paul Kantner and Grace Slick solo project information that is not directly related to the band, Jefferson Starship, and adding more detail that is directly related to that actual band for which this article is titled. Can others please comment on this discussion?Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 19:20, 24 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Please do not revert all my edits. I believe I've added much clarity to the history of the Jefferson Starship band and photos that have never been licensed freely before I gathered permissions from several photographers. Can we reach a consensus? RegardsCheryl Fullerton (talk) 20:06, 24 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

When exactly to split the Jefferson Starship and Starship articles

It seems we are missing a time period that should go in either the Jefferson Starship or Starship articles. It covers the era after Paul Kantner quit the group in June 1984 through the settlement of the lawsuit and changing the name to Starship in March 1985. This is the time period of where they were still on tour for the Nuclear Furniture album and David Freiburg is still with the group. It is also when they toured sometimes under the name Starship Jefferson. It seems like the article split is currently with Paul Kantner's departure. If we keep it this way, then David Freiburg should be added as a member of Starship for this period. If the split happens with the name change in March 1985, then the Jefferson Starship line-up after Paul Kantner left, but still with David Freiburg as a member should to be added to the Jefferson Starship page. I think the post-Kantner period should fall under Starship, but I am hoping for some feedback. AbleGus (talk) 03:18, 6 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Propose the removal of Jefferson Airplane external links

Hello Wikipedians, I propose the removal of the external links to Jefferson Airplane as this page should be about Jefferson Starship and and that it does not include other Jefferson Starship band members in it, such as Craig Chaquico, Pete Sears and Johny Barbata. Any opposition to that edit?Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 18:11, 12 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

I am opposed to your proposal to remove the external links to Jefferson Airplane on this page. While it has been agreed to split the Wikipedia articles for clarity and to keep the article from being too long, Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship are clearly related subjects. Some encyclopedia articles even have both in the same article (https://www.britannica.com/topic/the-Jefferson-Airplane). Based on significant the overlap of personnel, it should remain as it is.AbleGus (talk) 00:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hi again,

Here are further arguments for removing links to Jefferson Airplane to obtain accuracy.

You refer to Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship being “clearly related subjects,” that would not be accurate. Jefferson Airplane broke up in 1972. Grace Slick and Paul Kantner went on to do solo projects. It was not until 1974 that the band, Jefferson Starship, was formed and their first album was recorded, with equal, original founding members, including Slick and Kantner, Freiberg and Creach, but also including Chaquico, Sears and Barbata. Note that Marty Balin was not officially a member of the band when it was formed and wrote/recorded only the single “Caroline” for Dragon Fly. As this page was, as you noted, “separated for clarity,” it is in the spirit of that clarity—that these were actually two distinct bands, from different eras, and with a different sound and different key personnel, that I am proposing this detailed, “External links” section be removed from this page. The information can be added to those referenced musicians’ individual pages, as it contains their Airplane and solo projects, and this is a Jefferson Starship page. Readers of this page can simply go to the individual pages of each of the members of Jefferson Starship to read more about their past, solo and additional projects. This is for clarity. As it stands, this section is leaving out information for three, equal, original founding members of the Jefferson Starship band. Looking forward to your reply.22:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheryl Fullerton (talk • contribs)

Hello Cheryl. I completely disagree with your assertion that it is inaccurate to say that Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship are “clearly related subjects.” Just looking at the Biography of Jefferson Airplane in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (https://www.rockhall.com/inductees/jefferson-airplane) and it contains the line "Jefferson Airplane formally evolved into Jefferson Starship in 1974." That there is a connection seems fairly clear. I do not understand why would we want to remove links to related articles here? Sorry, I do not see a reason to make your proposed changes. AbleGus (talk) 05:12, 16 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Dear AbelGus, regardless of what the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame may say about Jefferson Airplane evolving into Jefferson Starship in 1974, that is inaccurate. The word “evolved” means to “develop gradually, from a simple to a complex form.” Merriam-Webster refers to it as a “transitive verb.” [1]. In actual fact, Jefferson Airplane broke up in 1972. Kantner himself made this statement in many articles [2] Jefferson Starship did not form or officially launch until 1974. Two years went by where Airplane band members went on to solo projects. Jefferson Starship did not evolve from Airplane. It is factually misleading to perpetuate this claim by the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame or anyone else who might otherwise benefit from continuing the deception. Having said that, the opening paragraph to the Jefferson Starship page being “…which evolved out of the group Jefferson Airplane,” is factually inaccurate and misleading. And including extensive references to Jefferson Airplane and Airplane members’ solo projects on the Jefferson Starship page is also inaccurate and misleading. As far as the External Links (aka related articles), it perpetuates the myth of evolution vs. a clear ending of one thing and a clear beginning of another with an extensive break in-between. Were some of the same members of Airplane also in Starship? Yes. They knew and worked well with one another. This does not mean one band evolved into the other. That is a myth. I would like to see Wikipedia be fact-based and not myth-based, hence my desired edits. Including links on the Jefferson Starship page to only members who were in Airplane (though I do notice that Johny Barbata isn’t part of those links for some reason) is obviously a problem with this page. Again, if there are going to be links like this on this band’s page, they should be there for ALL members of the band. I argue for their complete removal or the addition of all members in that section of the page. I look forward to your reply.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 17:32, 23 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Hello Cheryl, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a recognized authority on this genre of music, and as such would be a valid source of biographical information and analysis on music groups. I completely disagree with you that the statement "Jefferson Airplane formally evolved into Jefferson Starship in 1974." is inaccurate. Regarding a definition of the term, evolve also means "to develop or work out from something else" [3]. This development is precisely what occurred. The evolution began with the formation of factions within Jefferson Airplane (Paul-Grace and Jack-Jorma), coupled with Spencer Dryden and later Marty Balin leaving the band, and then release of albums (Hot Tuna and Blows Against the Empire) by those two separate factions of the band in 1970 while still being part of the Airplane. These divisions grew along with more personnel changes, and eventually became a permanent split into the two groups. There was never a formal announcement that Jefferson Airplane broke up, so the statement about a clear ending is not supported (Tamarkin, Jeff (2003). Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane. Page 259). The last shows for the Long John Silver tour occurred on September 21-22, 1972. After the tour ended, Jack Casady and Jorma Kaukonen did return to the studio in November-December 1972 to contribute to Kantner, Slick, and Freiberg's album Baron von Tollbooth & the Chrome Nun. There was an attempt in early 1973 to lure them back, with David Freiberg even taking up speed-skating (Tamarkin, Jeff (2003). Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane. Page 261). Paul, Grace, and the others waited for them to come back, in the meantime working their own albums. At some point, it became apparent they were not returning to reconvene Jefferson Airplane. The remaining members regrouped, Craig Chaquico and Peter Kaukonen were recruited, and they were rehearsing by January 1974 to go on tour. When it came time to come up with a name, "they ultimately agreed with (Bill) Thompson that maintaining the connection made good business sense," so Jefferson Starship was selected (Tamarkin, Jeff (2003). Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane. Page 267). A news article from that time period describes Jefferson Starship growing out of Jefferson Airplane, "the group didn't stop and start again." (https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qyEfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KZcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7193,2688665&dq=paul+kantner&hl=en) By using the name "Jefferson" in the name, they were creating a link. Calling it a myth that there is a link is not accurate and is not supported by evidence. Again, many encyclopedias have only one combined entry. It was more that just knowing and working well with each other, Paul and Grace were a couple at the time. There was also overlap in membership, management, and support staff. The extensive information on the solo projects is not misleading, it shows the development of the Paul-Grace faction that eventually grew into Jefferson Starship. All of the other musicians involved in the initial Jefferson Starship line-ups (Freiberg, Creach, Barbata, Peter Kaukonen, Chaquico, Sears) were involved with at least one of those four "solo" albums, so it also provides a background to these artists working together. Honestly, I really don't understand your argument that there's no connection here.

I am not sure what you are looking at regarding the links. The only external links in this article are as follows:

• Official Jefferson Starship web site
• Old official site
• Jefferson Starship collection at the Internet Archive's live music archive

Those are proper to have there. If you are actually referring to the template beneath it, that is a link to related articles under this subject. It makes sense that you see those individual names there as they all have solo albums, singles, and compilation albums released under their name which have their own Wikipedia articles, as well as other related Wikipedia articles. That's the purpose of the template. There is no need or room to have lists of all the other band members (nearly 40) in this place. Many of those other members do not have solo albums or at least ones that have their own Wikipedia article, so there is nothing to link to here. All of the band members that have their own pages are linked in the article or member lists already. I feel this should remain as is as the subjects are all related, and there is no need to remove this. Thank you for response. AbleGus (talk) 05:28, 24 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

I changed a couple of things on the discussion of the 1985 Agreement and settlement. First, the title of the sub-head as it relates more closely to the substance. I deleted the reference to the settlement of percentages to Kantner and Thompson as that is still being disputed. If anyone can come up with a source, we can put that back. Also, corrected "left" to "dismissed" for Freibergs departure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheryl Fullerton (talk • contribs) 20:05, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Hello Cheryl, I have made some changes to the edits. I tried to incorporate both pieces of information into the sub-heading. Kantner leaving is a big part of the substance of this section. The lawsuit was actually filed in October 1984. The information you added about the settlement was already covered, and the I have restored the part about the agreement by all sides to not use the name "Jefferson" which is from Jeff Tamarkin's book (Tamarkin, Jeff (2003). Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane. Page 330). I have also restored the information about the ownership percentages of the name. That comes also from the Jeff Tamarkin book (Tamarkin, Jeff (2003). Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane. Page 330). There it states "the name Jefferson Starship became the legal property of Grace Slick and Bill Thompson-Grace, with 51 percent of the corporate stock, actually had controlling interest." I have never seen any published documentation indicating that ownership percentages were in dispute. If you have sources for this information, please provide them. If there is not a published source, please keep in mind the Wikipedia:No original research policy(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research). Wikipedia articles must not contain original research, which refers to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. David Freiberg's departure is correct now with your edit. Thanks for your response and continued interest in this subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbleGus (talk • contribs) 04:08, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi AbelGus, getting back to the template, I was referring to the “discography” at the bottom of the page under “External Links” which currently links to discographies unrelated to Jefferson Starship itself and excludes other original founding members. I am not suggesting all “40” of the many side members who have performed with Paul Kantner’s post-92 version of Jefferson Starship be represented, but original founding members of the original Jefferson Starship. There is a difference in that it was the original members who wrote, recorded and performed the original music that has been covered extensively over the years. If your intent is to include only those who’ve had “solo albums, singles and compilation albums released under their name,” then you must include Craig Chaquico who has an extensive career as a solo artist in all of those categories. What do you need from me in order to include that information in the same manner as you have included the others? If you cannot do this, I think that this information should be taken down, as it is incomplete.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 15:48, 27 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Hi Wikipedians. I added a minor pertinent detail to the "Kantner departs section. It now says Craig Chaquico,"last remaining original founding member of Jefferson Starship"....Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 18:25, 27 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Hello Cheryl, regarding the template. It actually serves as a portal to connected pages, not merely a list. Each of the items listed, Jefferson Airplane, JA discography, JA members, Jefferson Starship, JS discography, JS members, etc, is actually a redirect to take you to a Wikipedia page for that specific topic (all the studio albums, live albums, compilations, and most of the singles, related miscellaneous articles). There is a separate Wikipedia article for each of the items in blue font. The purpose is to have a quick place to link to the related topics. The three groups are related enough to have them combined into one template based on overlapping personnel and topics. Each of the individual band members listed separately (Paul Kantner, Grace Slick, Marty Balin, and Papa John Creach) has multiple solo albums to their credit which each also have separate Wikipedia articles. I agree would be far too unwieldy to put all 40 Jefferson Starship members of the group here just to list them, and that is really not the purpose. It is more than just having solo albums and compilations, there would also need to be separate articles for those albums to link to. Neither John Barbata or David Freiberg have ever released a solo album, at least there is not one listed on their Wikipedia pages. For Peter Kaukonen, Craig Chaquico, Pete Sears, and Aynsley Dunbar, none of their solo albums have separate Wikipedia articles. There would be nothing to link to if they were added, and since this in supposed to be a place for linked articles, it would not be a reason to add them. On the template from the Jefferson Airplane page, Jack Casady and Spencer Dryden did not get listed separately in the template. Jack Casady only has one solo album to his credit (Dream Factor) and Spencer Dryden has none. I think we should leave this template as currently configured. AbleGus (talk) 04:41, 28 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Cheryl, I have removed the information you added about the "last remaining original founding member of Jefferson Starship" from the article. It really is not relevant to the paragraph that is simply listing when the other members of the band left. In addition, it seems to add more importance to his departure over the other members, which I do not think is necessary either. We do not mention that Grace Slick was the last person connected to Jefferson Airplane to leave the group, nor do I feel we should here. I have reverted this edit. AbleGus (talk) 04:54, 28 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

I deleted references to Jefferson Airplane because Jefferson Starship did not begin until 2 years after the break-up of Jefferson Airplane and added the names of the original founding members.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 18:35, 4 September 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Meant to say in the introductory paragraph.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 18:36, 4 September 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Cheryl, I have restored the references to Jefferson Airplane to the introductory paragraph. In addition to the Hall of Fame citation, please note that the AllMusic artist biography for Jefferson Starship also contains the following statement as the opening sentence "Jefferson Starship was among the most successful arena rock bands of the 1970s and early '80s, an even greater commercial entity than its predecessor, Jefferson Airplane, the band out of which it evolved" (http://www.allmusic.com/artist/jefferson-starship-mn0000840050/biography). This information is consistent with other sources, and should remain in the article. The AllMusic biography also does not list the members in the opening paragraph, this is covered in the body of the article.

AbelGus, As a compromise I have reworded the introduction slightly to give nod to members names of Jefferson Airplane. We seem to be disagreeing on the concept of "evolution." The new paragraph contains a truthful and accurate formation year of the band, Jefferson Starship and it's founding members Other detail, which can be verified as directly related to this band's history, can and is included in the body of the article. Don't forget to sign.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 20:58, 5 September 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Hello Cheryl, thanks for your additional responses on this subject. Apologies, I forgot to sign my last post. Unfortunately, I am not on board with the compromise edit you made. I still think the word "evolved" is valid in this instance, as well as continuing to use the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Biography as a source. Again, this is consistent with other sources, such as the AllMusic Biography of Jefferson Starship, and should remain in place. The dates and band members are also already contained in the body of the article, so it is really not necessary to add it here. I agree with the revert by the user Trackinfo and think the introductory paragraph should remain as is by consensus. Regards,AbleGus (talk) 01:51, 7 September 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

References to Paul Kantner and Grace Slick's Relationship

Hello Cheryl. I have reverted your recent edits removing references to Paul Kantner and Grace Slick being in a relationship to this article. You stated this information is irrelevant to the band, and a completely disagree. This is not just about the relationships of individual band members, it was a relationship between two band members. That is a significant difference. They were in a relationship from roughly 1969 - 1975, lived together, and had a child together. Providing some of this information gives the article a background on what was going on between members of the band during this time period.

It is not about being a fan site, this same information about their being in a relationship is present in other Jefferson Starship biography pages, such as the AllMusic entry for Jefferson Starship (https://www.allmusic.com/artist/jefferson-starship-mn0000840050/biography) where it states "rhythm guitarist/singer Paul Kantner (born Paul Lorin Kantner in San Francisco, CA, March 17, 1941) and singer Grace Slick (born Grace Barnett Wing in or near Chicago, IL, October 30, 1939), having become a romantic couple, had their own musical and political interests."

Other Wikipedia pages about rock music groups with similar relationship situations between group members include that information in the body of the article. Please reference the Wikipedia entry on Fleetwood Mac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleetwood_Mac). The article contains the sentences "Fleetwood soon asked him to join. Buckingham agreed, on the condition that his music partner and girlfriend, Stevie Nicks, also become part of the band; Fleetwood agreed." and "Behind the scenes the band was fraying apart in 1976; with the success of the band also came the end of John and Christine McVie's marriage, as well as Buckingham and Nicks' long term romantic relationship. Even Fleetwood was in the midst of divorce proceedings from his wife, Jenny." This information makes sense to include in order to understand the dynamics of the group Fleetwood Mac, and I think the same principle applies to Kantner and Slick with Jefferson Starship.

As to the information not being cited about Slick being pregnant during the recording, the prior citation for "Blows Against the Empire" in the Jefferson Starship Wikipedia entry contains the same review found on the AllMusic page for the album (https://www.allmusic.com/album/blows-against-the-empire-mw0000024441). This contains the line "Blows actually was a little loose as concept albums go, seeming as concerned with the arrival of Kantner and Grace Slick's baby as with the departure of the starship." The album was recorded in the fall of 1970, released in November 1970, and China Kantner was born in January 1971 (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0437935/). I think we can safely extrapolate the normal roughly nine month human gestation period here. If not, and you insist the need for another source, I can add a reference to the Jeff Tamarkin book, Got a Revolution! The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane (Chapter 24, Page 231). There it states "While the hour-long drive to San Francisco precluded much leisurely hanging out in the city, especially as Grace grew larger with child, the couple did commute regularly. They often worked the night shift, laying down tracks at Wally Heider's and another San Francisco studio, Pacific High Recording. Since the early spring, they had been piecing together Paul's new project, Blows Against the Empire." I have gone ahead and restored the information to the article. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 02:40, 5 October 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

When did Marty Balin join?

in the Origin section, it is mentioned that members of Jefferson Airplain joined the new project. They are all mentioned by name except for Balin. The article first mentions Balin as "contributing a song" to the first album. Then it says he left ... so when did he join? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.220.28.130 (talk) 06:57, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Tour content

If someone could add a version of this please thanks. 97.90.171.55 (talk) 02:49, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

In 2014 and 2015 the band gave a series of concerts for Helping Hospitalized Veterans, and received a Department of Defense Certificate of Appreciation for it.

The band was still touring in July 2018. They played at Brewery Arts Center benefiting the Greenhouse Project. The band also performed at Pacific Amphitheatre with America co-headlining. At age 79, Freiberg remained the only active original member in the band, after the 2016 death of Paul Kantner.

References

Templates and External Links

Cloud atlas

I would like to add an "External Link" in the template at the bottom of he page adding and linking Craig Chaquico, one of the original founding members to his album articles, Acoustic Highway, and Acoustic Planet on Wikipedia. Can someone please help me to achieve that change? Thanks in advance!Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 01:04, 18 February 2019 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Tamarkin quotes

AbleGus

Sorry, no plagiarism intended. I did take the quotes from Tamarkin's book, but I was finalizing page numbers to add this morning. I think this is a better source of accurate dates for the start of the band. Please comment.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 17:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Hello Cheryl, I apologize if the edit came across accusatory. I was just concerned that multiple lines from Jeff Tamarkin's book were inserted without attribution into the article, and did not know I caught you mid-edit so to speak. As to the edit itself, I do not think it fits in paragraph four of the Origins section. The remainder of that paragraph is about the album Manhole, and subsequent introduction of future band member Pete Sears into the narrative. While the information you added is in the right spot chronologically, I do not think we should add it there and alter the narrative.

As for adding your edit where it would fit into the narrative (paragraph six of the Origins section), I do not think it should be added there either. The information about Paul and Grace originally wanting to come up with a name unrelated to the Airplane is not all that important, because they ultimately agreed with Bill Thompson and used a name that kept that connection. Since they actually did not use an unrelated name, it is not that important to mention what they originally considered, but eventually decided against doing. It does make sense to explain here why the selected the name Jefferson Starship. The paragraph already includes "Kantner decided to put together a touring band without them," which corresponds to both the Tamarkin book and the AllMusic Jefferson Starship biography about his decision to return to touring. The part about "In 1973" does not actually appear in the quoted sentences in the Tamarkin book, it seems to have been added based on the sentence on page 266, "In all of 1973, he (Kantner) had not once stepped out on a stage with a guitar in hand." I don't think we should assume it was in 1973 and add it here. The fact that Thompson was pushing for it is not in and of itself all that important to note, since they were the ones who made the decision. Rather than add these lines directly from the Tamarkin book, I think we should leave the paragraph as it stands since the relevant information is already contained there.

As for your concern with the dates, I think paragraph six of the Origins section already covers the dates accurately. It starts with "In early 1974" for the decision to go on tour. Later in that paragraph, it states "The band began rehearsals in January 1974 and opened its first tour in Chicago on March 19," which corresponds to the AllMusic Biography page for Jefferson Starship. I think that sufficiently covers the time frame when the name Jefferson Starship became associated with this group of performers, with no additional clarification necessary. Thanks for explaining your edit. Please let me know what you think. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 04:08, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Hello, Abelgus, So, I'm a little confused. It seems to me that 1974 is the official date that the band became "Jefferson Starship" according to Tamarkin, and another source, in "Rolling Stone" May 18, 1978 p.58 issue which states, "With all of this going on, it's amazing that the group has managed to stay together for four years." Because paragraph 6 in the "Jefferson Starship" supports that fact, as well. I think we should change it to 1974 in view of all the information that supports the 1974 date especially in the InfoBox. What do you think? Regards, Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 23:48, 26 February 2019 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Hello Cheryl, I agree that the Infobox date should be 1974. Apologies, I did not see you had changed that back from an earlier edit when you added the other lines. I will go ahead and change it now. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 05:07, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Evolved?

I removed the inaccuracy of the comment that the group "evolved" out of Jefferson Airplane and provided a current and accurate source for the deletion. Jefferson Starship was a new and separate group from Jefferson Airplane. https://www.allmusic.com/artist/jefferson-starship-mn0000840050/biography, https://www.rockhall.com/inductees/jefferson-airplane?gclid=CJ2NhLWm4tUCFUdWDQodqFwBAACheryl Fullerton (talk) 00:12, 17 March 2020 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

I have restored the statement that Jefferson Starship evolved out of the group Jefferson Airplane following the departures of Jack Casady and Jorma Kaukonen. This statement is backed by several sources already listed in the article, including two direct quotes from Grace Slick, who is one of the legal owners of the Jefferson Starship trademark. AbleGus (talk) 03:30, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Recording sessions and live performances

http://jeffersonstarship.tripod.com/jsbase.htm

0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 19:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

jeffersonstarship.com/history.html = Jefferson Starship

http://jeffersonstarship.com/history.html = Jefferson Starship

0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 19:45, 9 July 2020 (UTC)