Talk:Japanese proverbs

Could someone

explain to me the proverb-phone connection?--69.212.100.126 07:01, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Questionable phrases

Another issue with proverbs is the "meaning" section. Subjective interpretations are not meanings. The literal translation is fine, but proverbs are intentionally left vague so as to encourage the reader to think about what was said and make his or her own mind up. I am requesting the editors remove the "Meaning" section —Preceding unsigned comment added by Garbage Monger (talk • contribs) 19:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Phrases that are in doubt of being actual proverbs:

• ミイラとりがミイラになる (Miiratori ga miira ni naru) -- (lit. A mummy hunter becomes a mummy) -- miira is from Portugese, suggesting that common usage, if any, doesn't have a long history.

As miira is a loan word imported from Portugese, the word itself is likely imported before the sakoku era, means before 1633. In fact, 'Miiratori ga miira ni naru' is used since the Edo period. My proverb dictionary says its sources are 本朝二十四考 (Honcho Nijushiko), a Kabuki drama first performed in 1766, 閑窓瑣談 (Kanso Sadan) and 根無草 (Nenasigusa), books also written in the edo period. More than two hundred years is a long history, I think. See the Japanese article ミイラ for the etymology for both the word itself and the proverb.

---

This would be much more useful with English translations.

The ones that have translations now aren't very coherent. Are they literal translations? It might be best to have a literal translation and something a bit more idiomatic to get the gist. Tuf-Kat

Yeah, each one needs much more explanasion. I put some that I know but most needs more research. Do you have any formatting suggestion? -- Taku 01:16 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

I think there should be a standard format for each of them that includes:

• Having the Japanese reading in romaji (it's the English version after all)
• Literal meaning or explanation
• English equivalent (if available)
• Explanation of origin (if available)

The format could be either a table like (shameless plug) Prefectures of Japan or a bulleted list as below.

• 一石二鳥 (Isseki nicho)
  • two birds with one stone

synthetik 01:42 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for suggestion. I did some formatting if you have idea just apply it to the artcile. Actually I prefer to use single line for each entry because I want to condense the article, which seems to grow later. -- Taku 02:14 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

My two cents:

• (Japanese characters) - idiomatic translation (literal translation)

People will be most interested in the translation that will have the most meaning to them, the idiomatic one, and may be only kind of interested in the literal and will not be as interested in the literal translation, which is usually nonsensical without some long and deep thought. Tuf-Kat

Maybe, but I think literal translation for four-letter words is useful. Do you? And what about English equivalent? Actually I found applying uniform format is a kind of difficult because some are short but some long, some has literal meaning that does make much sense to English speakers like one stone with two birds but some not apparently. -- Taku 04:29 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

Absolutely -- a literal translation is important and interesting, but I have no idea what "even monkeys drop from trees" means in any meaningful away; I am aware that monkeys must fall from trees occasionally, but it doesn't make me understand the proverb. It is better, I think, to give the more meaningful idiomatic translation. Both should be given in a uniform format (my suggestion is an idea, but as long as it is uniform, I don't care greatly). While occasionaly the two different definitions will be of greatly uneven length, this won't lead people astray as long as it is made clear through formatting what is literal and what is idiomatic. Maybe even something as simple as putting literal translations in italics and idiomatic meanings in plain text would help -- anything to set the two apart in the eyes of the reader, as long as the top of the article explains how everything works. Tuf-Kat

I think the principle should be that each proverb does make sense, hence meaningful translation is absolute. -- Taku 23:59 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

I don't think finding a full translation to an equivalent English proverb needs to be a single step done by one person. It would speed up this process if literal translactions were put in place by a speaker fluent in Japanese, even if that person is less fluent in English. If literal translations were in place, as a native English speaker I would enjoy trying to find English equivalents -- Williamv1138.

In my opinion, I think I _can_ understand what "even monkey drops from trees" means. Taken in isolation, it would be difficult, but when I add the fact that it is intended to be a proverb--- a short, possibly witty truism--- I can work through to what the truism intended is, and then search my memory for an English equivalent. That would be my process to contribute, if others could supply the literal translations. -- Williamv1138.

I added some translations using a spreadsheet. Some proberbs have a synonym, such as "even monkey drops from trees" and "even kappa (an imaginary animal living in rivers) fails to swim." There are also proverbs with opposite meanings. For example, "give things a try" and "if you don't touch god you don't get in trouble." I think it's a good idea to mention them but if we do that the current format would be too cloudy. -- Duckie

I'm not an expert in Japanese proverbs, but in 案ずるより生むが易し (Anjiru yori umu ga yasushi) there seem to be two romanization problems: "案ずる" is read "anzuru", not "anjiru". I don't know which is correct here. And I don't know "易し" but "易しい" and the latter is read "yasashii". All this may be based on my lack of understanding of Japanese and the historical language in particular. -- mjordan

"anzuru" is a traditional and largely discontinued verb form. I changed it to "anzuru" because it is more historical. The problem is, due to the past inconsitency in pronounciation and spelling, it is also correct to spell "anjiru" and pronounce so. It is somewhat like the spelling difference in British and American English and while British spelling maybe more historical and thus 'truer', most people doesn't write 'colour' or 'aeroplane'.

Revth 15:26, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I do find the literal translations valuable; and they do make sense, most of them, if one has at least some knowledge of Japanese culture and history. -- Slobbit

Is this genuine? "Sit beside the river long enough and you will see the body of your enemy float by." <>< tbc

Japanese translation

Can anyone tell me what is the correct Japanese translation of the proverb "Who travels for love finds a thousand miles not longer than one."? From what I've researched, it appears to be a Japanese love proverb but I can't seem to find its original translation. 84.90.96.252 (talk) 11:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Probably this: 惚れて通えば千里も一里 Horete kayoeba senri mo ichiri. --Kusunose 14:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the translation, Kusunose. =D 84.90.96.252 (talk) 18:22, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

What does, "A tall tree catches much wind," mean?

This is used to define one of the proverbs, but I've never heard this one, and neither can I figure it out nor find its meaning by searching. I'm hoping to confirm that the original Japanese proverb means what I think it does: "Anybody who decides to be publicly different will be punished and brought into line." Can anyone verify that?--Atkinson (talk) 19:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Sit by the river

"If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the body of your enemy float by"? 150.203.177.97 (talk) 00:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Origin

Could this 七転び八起き (Nanakorobi yaoki) "Fall seven times and stand up eight" have been originating from the bible? Proverbs 24:16 (BBE) "For an upright man, after falling seven times, will get up again: but trouble is the downfall of the evil." The biblical numbers are too conspicuous to be a coincidence. Normally one would think of three or four as a number to be used. Mightyname (talk) 22:42, 19 April 2017 (UTC)