Talk:January 2013 Great Britain and Ireland snowfall

Notable?

Is a seasonal snowfall really notable? There's a few inches of snow fallen, but it's hardly a disaster is it?  An optimist on the run! 13:51, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

It's unusual for the UK to experience as much snowfall as we've had in the past couple of days, though I have to say it seems to be happening on a more regular basis in recent years. Three of the previous four winders, 2008-2009, 2009-2010 and 2010-2011 have seen significant snowfall, while 2011-2012 had some, but is perhaps better remembered for its low temperatures. I do notice every extreme weather event seems to get its own article fairly quickly, but perhaps it might be worth looking into how best to present this information. Maybe it needs to be in the form of a review of each year's weather events or something like that. Paul MacDermott (talk) 14:31, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Its certainly an overdramatisation to call this a disaster. It does not dominate, or even figure strongly, in the BBC's news front page for example. I'd hardly rate it notable myself, however much the British like moaning about the weather.TheLongTone (talk) 14:51, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I've changed {{currentdisaster}} to {{currentevent}}, though in a few days time it'll have melted and been forgotten.  An optimist on the run! 15:38, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Indeed, and as Samuel Johnson once observed, "When two Englishmen meet, their first talk is of the weather." On a more serious note though I do think we need a solution for articles of this type, or potentially a new article could appear every time it snows, as is currently the case. Paul MacDermott (talk) 15:54, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

This certainly is NOT an "overdramatisation"! It's really quite notable to be honest, with over 3,000 schools closed, 500 flights cancelled at Heathrow alone, a red weather warning in Wales, and a fatality. And to say it isn't dominating the BBC News homepage would be incorrect, it may not be right now but it certainly was yesterday and this morning. GeorgeGriffiths (talk) 18:05, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I know it dominated the BBC News Channel yesterday. It was a lead story alongside the Algeria situation, and they seemed to flip between the two for most of the day. Paul MacDermott (talk) 18:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Schools closed, flights cancelled, a car crash (which the source only stated happened in bad weather, not necessarily caused by it) - i.e. no different to any other snow storm. This is not a big deal.  An optimist on the run! 18:36, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

To put the car crash into perspective, the provisional figure for UK traffic deaths year ending June 2012 was 1,790.TheLongTone (talk) 18:44, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

A similar event from February 2007 is included in the article Global storm activity of 2007. We don't have one for this year as yet (interestingly not one for 2012 either), but if they are created then this event could be included. Paul MacDermott (talk) 13:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

We now have four deaths as a result of an avalanche that is being reported as Scotland's worse in terms of loss of life. Paul MacDermott (talk) 22:25, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Whilst my thoughts are with the victims and their families, I don't think this is related to this article. The area where this happened, Glencoe, was not heavily affected by the recent snowfall [1], therefore the avalanche must have come from a previous snowfall.  An optimist on the run! 23:12, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I think given the snowfall we had overnight last night, this is now a bit more than just seasonal snowfall. (As a side note, my school is closed, and it never closes!!!) 77.102.211.136 (talk) 07:56, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Above comment was me not signed in. Apologies GeorgeGriffiths (talk) 07:57, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

The BBC source given for the avalanche makes no mention of the snowfall so any mention is OR even if true. Removed. Rubiscous (talk) 08:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Maybe a different picture to represent this would help. I understand if the UK is not used to snow, but this is crazy. I can see bare roof on the house in the picture, and there is MAYBE 6 inches on the fence (not sure what the equivalent in cm is, maybe 15?). I don't even live in an area that is considered to receive a substantial amount of snow. I understand "4 deaths have occurred", but one old lady and some guys that were in an avalanche isn't exactly in line with the disaster that this has been made out to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anondy (talk • contribs) 01:15, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Erm, excuse me. There is bare roof on that house because there have been high winds. That particular bit of roof is on the leading end of the house as the wind hits it, so it has all been blown away. Quite a lot of snow has been blown off of the fence too, it is a lot deeper on the floor. So stop jumping to conclusions. GeorgeGriffiths (talk) 16:19, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

The pictures shown do not depict this 'event' as particularly notable. I live in the so called met office Red Zone, but would not call this period of prolonged snow in anyway disastrous. However, its the joy of wikipedia to have articles that would not normally appear in a typical encyclopaedia. Therefore I think the article should stay. I have taken some photos in the red zone and will upload them. Scottie UK 20:08,23, January 2013 (GMT)

Images of Wales now uploaded and added Scottie UK 23:08,23, January 2013 (GMT)

I too was somewhat depressed if not altogether surprised to see that this article had been created. Might I gently suggest that people read Wikipedia:Notability (events), in particular

"Wikinews offers a place where editors can document current news events, but not every incident that gains media coverage will have or should have a Wikipedia article. A rule of thumb for creating a Wikipedia article is whether the event is of lasting, historical significance....Editors should bear in mind recentism, the tendency for new and current matters to seem more important than they might seem in a few years time....Events that have a noted and sourced permanent effect of historical significance are likely to be notable. This includes, for example, natural disasters that result in widespread destruction, since they lead to rebuilding, population shifts, and possible impact on elections. For example, Hurricane Katrina or the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake are notable by these standards. A minor earthquake or storm with little or no impact on human populations is probably not notable. It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect."

Think about this article in that context. As an aside, it ties up editing resources that might be deployed elsewhere on less trivial articles - if you are into trains GeorgeGriffiths, then you'll find huge swathes of the globe where major city stations have one-line articles, where a little of your time can give a great bang for the buck. Just see what happened when I made a similar suggestion to User:The ed17 - he's now got a bunch of featured articles/topics on the South American arms race of a hundred years ago! Might I also gently suggest that if you're still at school then you should be aware that you're probably not the best person for a perspective on the historical significance of events. Particularly things like snowfall when the late 90s and early noughties were particularly unsnowy so your baseline is warped. Trust me, 6-8 inches of snow is not a particularly big deal, certainly not up your way. (is it me or are we getting much more coverage of the British weather since the BBC moved to Manchester?) Le Deluge (talk) 02:12, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Can I suggest you add some of these thoughts to the AFD discussion? Incidentally, I'm old enough to recall quite a bad winter we had at the beginning of the 1980s. If memory serves me correctly, after that, and apart from a couple of cold snaps the next significant lot of snowfall we had was 1987, then 1990-1991. Our article about snowfall from February 2009 says that was the next most significant amount. My suggestion of keeping this is based on the fact that every time it snows we get an article, we have an AFD debate and the consensus is to keep. I'll look into it, but if records are being broken then we should keep this. Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:13, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Article relaunch

Now we are at the end of March and another dumping of snow is upon us, might it be worth restoring this article, but under a different name? Heavy snow in late spring is rare for the UK, so I think we've passed all the relevant guidelines now. I propose an overview of the winter, perhaps Winter of 2012-2013 in the United Kingdom, which incorporates the December floods, January snow, and this latest lot, as well as some of the weather events sandwiched in between. There is also an economic element to this story inasmuch as the weather is being blamed (in part at least) for the continued depressed state of the country. I won't do anything just yet as we need to see how things go, but your thoughts are welcome as always. Paul MacDermott (talk) 19:07, 23 March 2013 (UTC)