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Birth date edit
An IP at help desk claims the birthdate is 21 June 1945. We only have one source for the 1948 date. Should we wait until we have better sources and leave the birth date out for now?--Canoe1967 (talk) 10:28, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Plenty of sources say 1948 - see Google - and this one is widely used/respected across Wikipedia. GiantSnowman 10:26, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- I think we should leave it out until we get a better source. A mention on any of the official sites for the teams he's managed would be good. You might want to also ask the Dutch Wikipedia to see if they've got anything. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:48, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- I've asked at WP:FOOTY, plenty of Dutch editors there. GiantSnowman 11:50, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- This report on the club website of his July 2012 appointment as manager of GAIS describes him as 67 years old. It doesn't give an actual birthdate, but that age/date is consistent with a 1945 birth, and would rule out 1948. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, curioser and curiouser. GiantSnowman 12:45, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- While I do not condone Canoe's inappropriate behavior which resulted in his block, Snowman's edit summary when he reverted Canoe is wrong because he obviously misread or misunderstood what the page was saying. Snowman's edit summary was: "clearly not a RS, lists him as Swedish when he is actually Dutch". This is Canoe's source. As anyone can see, the source does not say Mak is Swedish; it simply says "Country: Sweden", which is obviously referring the his club's country, not Mak's nationality. So that part is correct. And if you look at Snowman's own source, it shows the Swedish flag next to the most of the clubs Mak's been with. I should mention, though, that Canoe's initial change of the date of birth was highly inappropriate because he provided no source to back up the change and, shockingly, simply took the word of an IP editor at the help desk who claimed to be Mak. It amazes me that he did this immediately after the similar editing mistakes that just happened at Henry E. Emerson, which Canoe was very actively involved in. There, some editors inserted death and date of birth content about the wrong Emerson. A user named PrimalHawaii came to the help desk and said he was a personal friend of Emerson, insisting that it was a case of mistaken identity, which turned out to be absolutely true. The incident blew up on the article's talk page and elsewhere. The problem was resolved, but what makes this incident with Mak so interesting is that Canoe went to Primal's talk page just last night and scolded some edtiors who reverted Primal and kept adding back the obviously erroneous death and birth content, even though the sources were completely unreliable. I'm not saying the IP editor at the help desk in this situation is not Mak, but we of course have absolutely no evidence to prove that he is Mak; So, after all of Canoe's involvement in the Emerson editing fiasco, it astounds me that he simply took the word of an IP editor claiming to be Mak, and changed the date of birth (with no source at all, reliable or otherwise). When I saw that edit, I honestly couldn't believe it. (He didn't add the Eurosport.com source[1] until three days later.) If there isn't ironclad proof about the birth (or death) info for the subject of a BLP, it should never be added. If there are conflicting reliable sources, then that should be pointed out in the article. By the way, my hunch is that the IP editor is indeed Jan Mak and that his date of birth is as he says, 21 June 1945, which matches the Eurosport.com source. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 17:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Canoe's chosen source shows 'Club' as blank, and so 'Country' does not "obviously" refer to club nationality, as opposed to Mak's nationality - if anything it more-than-ever refers to personal nationality. Having used dozens of football database websites nearly every day for nearly 7 years, forgive me when I say I know what I'm talking about here. GiantSnowman 17:37, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not here to argue with you Snowman. I'm neutral on this issue, and uninvolved, and simply wanted to present a balanced viewpoint. Regarding what the country and flag represents, look at your own source. What are all those Swedish flags for? Mak's nationality or the club's? And for the record, I simply said it was my "hunch" that the 1945 birth date is correct; I would never make an edit based simply on a hunch. And I'd need to see a much more solid source to prove it than Canoe's source. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 17:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- My source clearly show the nationality of the club (next to the clubs) and the nationality of Mak (big "Nationality: Netherlands", in bold, with flag) whereas Canoe's does not have a club to show nationality for. GiantSnowman 18:39, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mak's nationality is not in dispute. As I already stated, I'm not here to argue with you. Editing must be based on the presented facts, not on assumptions or interpretations. Also, I sense an aggressive tone in your replies, which I also noticed in your replies to Canoe. That's disappointing to see from an admin. In any case, we each made our points and we'll see what happens. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 18:59, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- My source clearly show the nationality of the club (next to the clubs) and the nationality of Mak (big "Nationality: Netherlands", in bold, with flag) whereas Canoe's does not have a club to show nationality for. GiantSnowman 18:39, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not here to argue with you Snowman. I'm neutral on this issue, and uninvolved, and simply wanted to present a balanced viewpoint. Regarding what the country and flag represents, look at your own source. What are all those Swedish flags for? Mak's nationality or the club's? And for the record, I simply said it was my "hunch" that the 1945 birth date is correct; I would never make an edit based simply on a hunch. And I'd need to see a much more solid source to prove it than Canoe's source. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 17:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Canoe's chosen source shows 'Club' as blank, and so 'Country' does not "obviously" refer to club nationality, as opposed to Mak's nationality - if anything it more-than-ever refers to personal nationality. Having used dozens of football database websites nearly every day for nearly 7 years, forgive me when I say I know what I'm talking about here. GiantSnowman 17:37, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- While I do not condone Canoe's inappropriate behavior which resulted in his block, Snowman's edit summary when he reverted Canoe is wrong because he obviously misread or misunderstood what the page was saying. Snowman's edit summary was: "clearly not a RS, lists him as Swedish when he is actually Dutch". This is Canoe's source. As anyone can see, the source does not say Mak is Swedish; it simply says "Country: Sweden", which is obviously referring the his club's country, not Mak's nationality. So that part is correct. And if you look at Snowman's own source, it shows the Swedish flag next to the most of the clubs Mak's been with. I should mention, though, that Canoe's initial change of the date of birth was highly inappropriate because he provided no source to back up the change and, shockingly, simply took the word of an IP editor at the help desk who claimed to be Mak. It amazes me that he did this immediately after the similar editing mistakes that just happened at Henry E. Emerson, which Canoe was very actively involved in. There, some editors inserted death and date of birth content about the wrong Emerson. A user named PrimalHawaii came to the help desk and said he was a personal friend of Emerson, insisting that it was a case of mistaken identity, which turned out to be absolutely true. The incident blew up on the article's talk page and elsewhere. The problem was resolved, but what makes this incident with Mak so interesting is that Canoe went to Primal's talk page just last night and scolded some edtiors who reverted Primal and kept adding back the obviously erroneous death and birth content, even though the sources were completely unreliable. I'm not saying the IP editor at the help desk in this situation is not Mak, but we of course have absolutely no evidence to prove that he is Mak; So, after all of Canoe's involvement in the Emerson editing fiasco, it astounds me that he simply took the word of an IP editor claiming to be Mak, and changed the date of birth (with no source at all, reliable or otherwise). When I saw that edit, I honestly couldn't believe it. (He didn't add the Eurosport.com source[1] until three days later.) If there isn't ironclad proof about the birth (or death) info for the subject of a BLP, it should never be added. If there are conflicting reliable sources, then that should be pointed out in the article. By the way, my hunch is that the IP editor is indeed Jan Mak and that his date of birth is as he says, 21 June 1945, which matches the Eurosport.com source. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 17:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, curioser and curiouser. GiantSnowman 12:45, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- The back page of this Dutch newspaper, dated 16 July 1977, in the piece headed Voetbal, tells us that "De 32-jarige Jan Mak is vrijdag als trainer van de nieuwe eredivisievereniging Volendam benoemd.", i.e., "The 32-year-old Jan Mak was named on Friday trainer of the new Eredivise club Volendam." The reproduction's smudged, but it's just about readable, and can be selected to copypaste. That date/age is consistent with a 1945 birth, not 1948, and as a digital image of a newspaper from 45 years ago, is independent of the errors that proliferate when internet football stats databases source from each other. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:57, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Struway, thanks for showing that. It's very interesting. Based on that source, Mak's date of birth would indeed be 1945 (or 1944 if he had a birthday later that year). --76.189.111.199 (talk) 18:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Good find, I've removed 1948 but not added 1945 until we get a definitive source for exact DOB - as #76 says, it could be 1944. GiantSnowman 18:39, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Based on Struway's excellent source it would be completely accurate to put "(born 1944 or 1945)" in the article. Just attach Struway's source to it. If/when we confirm the month and day, it can be added then. ;) --76.189.111.199 (talk) 18:59, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- This Eurosport source (slightly different to what 76.189 linked to) states his date of birth is 21st June 1945. There's no mention of Eurosport on WP:RSN, and it looks like a reliable news aggregator. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:15, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Already discussed - and dismissed by me - above. It lists Mak as a Swedish player, when he is a Dutch manager. Not reliable. GiantSnowman 19:26, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- In what way is it not reliable? Is it self published, or a fan site? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:40, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- It gets extremely basic information wrong, so I don't trust it in the slightest. It's not a site that I see many editors (or any at all, to be honest) use when editing football biographies. GiantSnowman 19:43, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Sadly, it seems apparent that Snowman is not going to listen to reason. He's just going to keep repeating the same, false claim that the Eurosport page says Mak is a "Swedish player". It says no such thing. That's only Snowman's interpretation of what it says. These are the facts: The page says "Country: Sweden", displays the flag of Sweden, and does not name the club. It does not say that Mak's nationality is Swedish. It's just as likely that the country and flag represent his club's nationality, but Snowman inexplicably refuses to even acknowledge this likely possibility. And he will not even acknowledge my suggestion to simply add "(born 1944 or 1945)" to the lead, as evidenced by Struway's great source. In any case, I thank the editors who have provided some great information and comments. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 20:45, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Woah woah woah, because I say - with good reason - that I don't believe one source is reliable, I'm suddenly refusing to listen to reason? Nope. I'm using common sense and years of experience to come to that conclusion. I missed your suggestion about adding "(born 1944 or 1945)", I didn't ignore it - why don't you AGF for once here? GiantSnowman 20:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Sadly, it seems apparent that Snowman is not going to listen to reason. He's just going to keep repeating the same, false claim that the Eurosport page says Mak is a "Swedish player". It says no such thing. That's only Snowman's interpretation of what it says. These are the facts: The page says "Country: Sweden", displays the flag of Sweden, and does not name the club. It does not say that Mak's nationality is Swedish. It's just as likely that the country and flag represent his club's nationality, but Snowman inexplicably refuses to even acknowledge this likely possibility. And he will not even acknowledge my suggestion to simply add "(born 1944 or 1945)" to the lead, as evidenced by Struway's great source. In any case, I thank the editors who have provided some great information and comments. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 20:45, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- It gets extremely basic information wrong, so I don't trust it in the slightest. It's not a site that I see many editors (or any at all, to be honest) use when editing football biographies. GiantSnowman 19:43, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- In what way is it not reliable? Is it self published, or a fan site? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:40, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Already discussed - and dismissed by me - above. It lists Mak as a Swedish player, when he is a Dutch manager. Not reliable. GiantSnowman 19:26, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- This Eurosport source (slightly different to what 76.189 linked to) states his date of birth is 21st June 1945. There's no mention of Eurosport on WP:RSN, and it looks like a reliable news aggregator. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:15, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Based on Struway's excellent source it would be completely accurate to put "(born 1944 or 1945)" in the article. Just attach Struway's source to it. If/when we confirm the month and day, it can be added then. ;) --76.189.111.199 (talk) 18:59, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Good find, I've removed 1948 but not added 1945 until we get a definitive source for exact DOB - as #76 says, it could be 1944. GiantSnowman 18:39, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Struway, thanks for showing that. It's very interesting. Based on that source, Mak's date of birth would indeed be 1945 (or 1944 if he had a birthday later that year). --76.189.111.199 (talk) 18:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- This report on the club website of his July 2012 appointment as manager of GAIS describes him as 67 years old. It doesn't give an actual birthdate, but that age/date is consistent with a 1945 birth, and would rule out 1948. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- I've asked at WP:FOOTY, plenty of Dutch editors there. GiantSnowman 11:50, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- I think we should leave it out until we get a better source. A mention on any of the official sites for the teams he's managed would be good. You might want to also ask the Dutch Wikipedia to see if they've got anything. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:48, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
A site that's reliable in the execution of its primary function isn't necessarily reliable when it tries to extend its scope. I have no reason to think Eurosport unreliable as a news aggregator, i.e. in harvesting and reproducing sport-related news items. I've used news items published there to source Wikipedia content, and would have no problem doing so again. But I wouldn't consider it generally reliable as a profiler of players and coaches. It's pretty clear from other subjects profiled e.g. David Beckham, Johan Cruyff, Michael Laudrup, Brian Laudrup, that the country is the nationality of the subject and the location is their place of birth: see in particular Brian Laudrup, a Dane born in Vienna whose last employment was in the Netherlands. Listing Mr Mak as Swedish evidences a lack of fact-checking, which makes it IMO unreliable as a source for his date of birth (even though it's quite probably correct). Unless of course Mr Mak has taken Swedish nationality, but I've seen nothing to indicate that. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:26, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Struway, I was referring to your source as the reliable one, not the Eurosport one. Obviously, the Eurosport one is not reliable and therefore cannot be used to support the content. I was simply making the point that editors need to present only facts - what we know for sure - and not their interpretations or assumptions of what a source is conveying. Again, thanks for finding that. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 21:37, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- And I was simply making the point that for all the other players/coaches I checked at the Eurosport site, the country represents their nationality, so it's hardly unreasonable for Giant Snowman to assume the same applies to Mr Mak. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:42, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Again, "to assume" is not the way we edit content. It may simply be an error by the person who created that incomplete profile. But it's moot because it's obviously not reliable. But what's interesting is that the DoB on the Eurosport page you found for Mak is an exact match to the one given by the IP claiming to be Mak, and it aligns with the info provided by your 1977 source. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 22:00, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- It could simply be the Eurosport reference is a mistake. Reliable sources do get things wrong. I've cited stuff from "official" biographies that have been professionally ghost-written and commercially published, yet still contain a few glaring howlers. It just means that the reliability of what you cite becomes a bit of a crapshoot, which is not so good. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 22:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Again, "to assume" is not the way we edit content. It may simply be an error by the person who created that incomplete profile. But it's moot because it's obviously not reliable. But what's interesting is that the DoB on the Eurosport page you found for Mak is an exact match to the one given by the IP claiming to be Mak, and it aligns with the info provided by your 1977 source. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 22:00, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- And I was simply making the point that for all the other players/coaches I checked at the Eurosport site, the country represents their nationality, so it's hardly unreasonable for Giant Snowman to assume the same applies to Mr Mak. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:42, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Voetbal International: 1948. Now, this is a piece of news found in other places as well, but they report VI as a source. In Dutch soccer news, it probably doesn't get much more reliable than VI. I've searched the archives for some Dutch newspapers as well but didn't find anything. Drmies (talk) 03:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
- That piece has him 62 on 10 January 2010, which doesn't fit with the 20 March 1948 date suggested elsewhere. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
- Algemeen Dagblad, 14 Nov. 1986: "Jan Mak (41)", which makes year of birth 1945 likely. Vysotsky (talk) 19:36, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- de Volkskrant, 16 July 1977, "32-jarige Jan Mak". Vysotsky (talk) 19:50, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- Vrije Volk, 3 January 1980: "Jan Mak, 34, geboren in Voorburg". Year of birth 1945, place of birth Voorburg. Vysotsky (talk) 19:56, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- That piece has him 62 on 10 January 2010, which doesn't fit with the 20 March 1948 date suggested elsewhere. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
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