Talk:James P. Barker

Mass murderer

Iquinn, I've normally supported you in the past and you'll also note I haven't raised any objections to the other categories you've added. However I disagree with Barker's inclusion in the Mass Murderer category.

• Although Barker pleaded guilty to rape and murder, these are U.S. legal terms. Fact is he literally did not pull the trigger on a minimum of four people.

• The Wikipedia article states: "A mass murder typically occurs in a single location in which a number of victims are killed by an individual."

Ryan4314 (talk) 22:25, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

You are presenting here a cherry picked quote from the Wikipedia article on mass murder. That mass murder are typically committed by a single individual does not mean there are no other cases. With 4 people murdered the Mahmudiyah killings fully fulfill the requirements for mass murder.

I think there is not much to say other than we are surely go with the legal terms. They did it as a group and it technically does not matter who pulls the trigger. James P. Barker is guilty of murder of Abeer, her parents and her little sister. There are no good reason not to categorize him under Category:American mass murderers. IQinn (talk) 22:56, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

"There are no good reason not to categorize him under Category:American mass murderers." He didn't actually kill anyone. This fact means this topic is not black-and-white, I suggest drawing in a consensus. Ryan4314 (talk) 23:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

He raped a 14 year old girl and murdered 4 people and he got 90 years in prison for that. He is a mass murder. I suggest drawing in a consensus. What do you mean by that? IQinn (talk) 00:12, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

He did not literally kill them, Green did, with an AK47.

I meant start an RFC or something, so other people can add their views, not just us two. Try not to become too emotionally involved, I hate what Green and his cronies did too, but we must remain neutral and these classifications present some BLP issues. Ryan4314 (talk) 20:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

James P. Barker murdered all of them.

You are welcome to bring this to another place. I think Noticeboard BLP would be the right place. Barker is a mass murder and he is.... He murdered 4 people including a 6 year old and he raped a 14 year old. He took part in the crime from the planning to the cover up. He is guilty of murdering all 4 people and he is guilty of arson as they then set fire to the corpse to cover up their crime. There is not a single doubt about all of this. I was asking myself if you might have a COI? I am not emotional and i hope you will understand when i will continue to defend my position, as there is no doubt that James P. Barker murdered four people and i do not see any reason to white wash this fact - unless someone might have a COI. IQinn (talk) 21:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

It is pretty absurd to suggest I am attempting a cover-up:

• I did after all create an article just for Abeer, two years before you ever edited Wikipedia [1]
• Voted "keep" in the Dale Green AFD [2]
• And how would you explain this edit? [3]

How can I have a Conflict Of Interest, in what way am I involved with any of the affected parties? Thankyou for repeating the above information, of which I am already aware. I have never doubted Barker's guilt I am simply questioning wether he should be in our mass murderers category. I have already requested comment from BLP and also the Mamudiyah article talk page. Ryan4314 (talk) 22:22, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I concur with IQinn.

• Four people were murdered, during a particular event, with no cooling-off period between the murders. This meets the FBI criteria for "mass murder". I suggest that the FBI is a reliable source for establishing what criteria are needed to determine that an American citizen qualifies as a mass murderer.
• Barker pleaded guilty to four counts of the crime of murder in a court of competent jurisdiction and was subsequently convicted of the crime, and as far as I can determine, has no pending appeals.
• It's not contested that the four murders occurred over a very short period of time as part of a single event, with no "cooling-off period" (unless one tries to make the revolting and bizarre argument that gang-raping a 14-year-old is "cooling off").
• Mass murder need not be conducted by one individual. Jim Jones did not personally administer poisoned Flavor-Aid to every one of his followers at Jonestown—in fact, he didn't even prepare it, his aides did that—but very few people would disagree with the claim that Jim Jones is a good example of a mass murderer.

Therefore, based on objective criteria and uncontested facts, it seems quite fair to me to say that James P. Barker is a mass murderer and therefore worthy of inclusion within that category. That conclusion can be reached using uncontroversial facts from reliable sources, so I see nothing about adding him to that category that would violate WP:BLP. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 03:49, 13 September 2010 (UTC)